Tracing a Grandparent.

Chauncey Gardner

Hi folks. I'm trying to complete an Irish Foreign Birth Registration on behalf of a friend.

Their grandparent was Irish (born in Galway) although contact was lost with him and he passed away in England the 1970's. He was a participant in the Civil War and left Ireland in 1923.

Does anyone know how I can find out the exact date of death and year/date he was married? Both events occurred in England.

Thanks.

cobham

There is a site that might help.

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/

ONce you details of location/year/quarter etc you can apply for a digital copy of the certificates thru the government site.

Chauncey Gardner

Thanks for that.

The name is unusual enough and I’ve found record of a death with correct location (at a guess) name correct and year of death possibly correct, but the date of birth is given as 1905, when he was born in 1898.

I’m thinking that it is the correct person, but wondering is it common enough for dates of birth to be recorded incorrectly to that extent?

Chauncey Gardner

Edit. The record for the person that I’ve found has a very specific date of birth, so I’m guessing it’s not the same person, not unless, as a long shot, the registrar made up a date of birth as exact details not known at time of death. I’m wondering is that possible ?

Waitsian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120701159#Comment_120701159

Check the 1901 and 1911 Irish census for him to verify his age and date of birth.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

Unless you've already found his birth cert entry?

55Gem

The informant on his death may not have known his correct age, even he may not have known his correct age, neither would be unusual, the registrar wouldn’t just make one up.

Chauncey Gardner

Hi thanks for that. Yes I’ve got him on both 1901 and 1911 Irish census. He was 2 in 1901 and 12 in 1911.

I think at death, full details were not known or were given incorrectly on previous occasions for whatever reason.

I’m now thinking the named person on death record with DOB as 1905 and not 1898 is the same person.

Hopefully, if I order the 1905 persons death cert, will give further information which might help.

Chauncey Gardner

PS: yes I’ve got his birth cert. Born 1898.

Hermy

Have you checked newspapers for a death notice?

Chauncey Gardner

Thanks, yes tried that. Couldn’t find anything. Unfortunately he had lost all contact with all family up until days before he passed away.

Hermy

In case you don't have it this is the link to the UK GRO.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

There are other places that will sell you UK civil records but they may charge significantly more.

Chauncey Gardner

Hi folks.

Thanks for your assistance. I'm now pretty confident that the death cert where the birth date is given as 1905 is the person I'm looking for.

However his birth date on birth certificate is given as 1898 with different day and month.

In such circumstances, how will the DFA assess the application for Foreign Birth registration? Could this prevent a successful application for FBR?

Thanks.

ath262

you will need additional evidence, not just a death cert, proving the connection - e.g. marriage cert, birth of children (or least the applicant's connection)

there could easily be other people with the same name born around the same time, so your evidence needs to show a trail of documents proving the one born in Ireland you believe is the ancestor is actually linked.

Was this person in England or Wales for the 1939 register or the 1921 census ?

The '39 register has date of birth (as reported) so might help show the link to the birth cert you have

As far as I know the death certs for England (& Wales) for the 1970s were still the old basic format, so limited information regarding family, unless the informant happens to be known family, or similarly place of death

added : you can search the freeBMD index for a possible marriage, you can narrow down the matches by adding the wife's name. You can order certs from the GRO (on paper)

55Gem

Could he have taken part in the War of Independence as well, perhaps he applied for a military pension, even if he didn’t get it the application should have his details in Ireland and his address in the UK.

Chauncey Gardner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120702637#Comment_120702637

Thanks for that. He would have been about 20 years old then, so possibly did take part in the WOI. I think I've had a check for that over the years, (Pension) but never found anything.

I know he was "interviewed" in 1923 when interned (in Athlone I think) as brief notes from the interview were published recently in a book documenting the Civil War. I'll have another look at Pension Applications. But I get the feeling that if he did participate in the WOI he didn't apply.

Like so many others, it split the family apart. His sister tried to make contact with him during the 1970's via the Salvation Army, but I don't think she was successful.

Chauncey Gardner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120702535#Comment_120702535

Thanks gain for info and suggestions.

Yes I've applied for his wedding cert (confirmed as him), and his sons birth cert, (the applicants father).

He would have been in England in 1939, but not, I strongly suspect, in 1921.

Is the 1939 register data included on the UK BMD sites? is this the best site for the 39 register?

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/

I think he died in a Care Home in Cheshire in 1980, but not sure where.

Many thanks.

ath262

The 1939 register is on FindMyPast and I think Ancestry. I believe updates are a little better on FindMyPast, e.g. unredacting names etc. See item 5 on that National Archives link.

55Gem

If he was anti-treaty he won’t be on the Military Archives site yet,I think, I know my grandfather isn’t and he got a pension. I did get his application forms etc from them but it took a year but the info on them was great, from his parents names right up to my grandmother’s death.

Mick Tator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120703235#Comment_120703235

I've worked on a male and a female anti-Treaty people and pension records for both are online.

55Gem

Don’t want the thread to go off subject but that is interesting I’m waiting on at least three. A couple more I’m not sure were pro or anti.

Mick Tator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120703429#Comment_120703429

It is on topic as it's a valid search/source query. Both have been up for over a year; he was first, her file came later. I've checked again and found the male quite easily (Tipperary Brigade) but his sister is not showing in the search results although her MSP reference is detailed in his file. Search again for your people, I'm not sure the BMH search function is 100%.

55Gem

Happy to report I found two of the five I searched for, my grandmother's brother and her brother in law. Just let my granduncle's son know he'll be delighted as he has been searching regularly for it and have given up and requested it from them. That's my reading sorted for today.

Chauncey Gardner

Folks thanks for input interesting stuff.

On the Anti-Treaty aspect, what is the best avenue to pursue to get Internment records etc?

Would I need to contact the Cathal Brugha barracks and arrange to view paper records?

pinkypinky

Start with the Military Archives website and see what you can find there (I find it a bit cumbersome) and then contact the barracks if you get stuck. Cécile Chemin, one of the archivists, is on Twitter @MuayCe and she's very responsive.

Anything offline will have to be applied for by direct descendants (the closer the better) but I'm sure they'll accept a letter from one of them saying you're dealing with it on their behalf. I got my great-grandfather's service record with a chain of descent proof, but when I did the same for my grandfather, they asked if any of his children were alive, and asked that they apply instead. Record was forthcoming then.

Chauncey Gardner

@pinkypinky. Great info many thanks.

Mick Tator

The link for the pension files is

http://mspcsearch.militaryarchives.ie/search.aspx?formtype=advanced

Also, if affiliated with key personnel do not overlook the NLI as your people could be mentioned in special archives / collections in the NLI.

BowWow

https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2023/06/militaryarchivesie-releases-14th.html

Opportune?