Advice - difficult property issue

clarabell123

Sadly my mother in law has early onset dementia and is currently in long term residential care. The doctors have said it is unlikely she will be able to live independently again due to the issues with her short term memory. Myself and her son do not live in Ireland anymore, but most of his family are still in Ireland.

She has had a partner for around 15 years, who has been living in her house for about 10 years. He has not financially contributed to the running of the house or the mortgage, and is not on the deeds.

unfortunately, when my mother in law’s condition was stating to deteriorate, her partner didn’t seem to do much to help. He did not alert anyone in the family and did not seek medical attention for her. My mother in law was found living in conditions that were not pleasant by someone in the family and was taken to hospital.

We are now in the position where we will need to rent out my mother in law’s home. We have had verbal assurances from him that he will be moving out by a certain date, and vans have been seen at the house, but he is no longer replying to my partner’s messages or phone calls, and does not seem to be visiting my mother in law or contacting her. We are concerned that he may not move out when he has said he will. It seems a messy situation.

Has anyone been in a similar situation? If so, what did you do/ what would you recommend doing?

looksee

Does anyone in the family have power of attorney for your MIL?

Deeec

First thing is you need to speak to your mum's solicitor and find out does he have any legal standing. I am assuming you are going through the fair deal scheme for her care - if so they will have a problem with someone living rent free in the house who is not a spouse. The family also have to be prepared for the fact that your mum may have left her property to this guy - that shouldn't affect the issue you have now though.

Then go stay in your mother's in law's house for a few weeks and say you are moving in. He will soon move out!

Princess Calla

I would have thought the easiest solution would be to visit home for a week or two annual leave.

Go see for yourself, visit the MIL and visit the relatives who have stepped in and helped out.

I absolutely get that families are complicated and the relationship with your partner and his mum might actually be broken beyond repair , which is fine. However to get the true picture I do think you might need to see for yourself.

I also think you're fairly lucky that the partner moved out without a fight (unless he has thrashed the place) that could really have been a messy situation.

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678510#Comment_120678510

There is no indication that 'the relationship with your partner and his mum might actually be broken beyond repair', nor is there any indication that the MIL's partner has moved out?

BanjoSpanner

Of course I could be wrong, but I'm not sure things are as clear cut as you've put them. Are you certain that the partner has no rights of inheritance? You said he didn't contribute financially (you haven't said how you can be certain of this) but that in itself may not mean anything. It's not like your mother in law only met him last week, they've had a very long term relationship and that may confer upon him some rights.

It's not clear from your post what way your mother in laws cognitive abilities and reasoning powers are. You've said she has memory issues, but is she still able to think reasonably well? Is she able to make a decision as regards what way she wants her partner to be treated? Had she ever expressed a view on that in the past? If she cannot, then would it be reasonably possible for you to make a judgement based on how they got on together in better times for her?

You can't do this alone, and I'd advise you to get the rest of the family back in Ireland involved if they are not already. Without wanting to sound unhelpful to your situation, I can't help but think that you're mentally tooling up for a battle with the partner here already, where he may just walk away on the agreed move out date. If he does, well then there's no issue. And if he doesn't, well then consider next moves.

You will definitely need professional legal advice at some point however. As I said before, I'm completely open to correction but I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the partner has some acquired rights due to the length of the relationship and the fact that he has lived in the house for a decade or so. If he does have rights, then him moving out does not extinguish them and he may later seek to exercise those rights in one way or another. That's a scenario that could see you tied up in legal knots for a while.

Bottom line, whatever he does or doesn't agree to with you, I think you should seek professional advice anyway. For all you know, the partner may have done just that already for himself and is about to make things very awkward for you.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678516#Comment_120678516

Well to be honest if I got a call from a relative to tell me that my mother had been found living in unpleasant conditions and needed taking into hospital and subsequently diagnosed with early dementia and can no longer live alone. Her partner who I thought she was safe with wasn't looking after her. My first response would be booking a flight home and seeing for myself what was going on. The fact that they didn't do this would indicate to me that the relationship was at the very least strained.

They said the vans were seen outside, I presumed they were the moving vans and now the partner has slunk off to leech off someone else so can't be bothered returning calls. However you are right we don't know, which again leads me to think that the parent/ son relationship is strained as if someone was living in my mother's house who I thought had been medically neglecting her I'd be marching through the door watching him pack and in the best EastEnders accent "sling his hook" .

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678538#Comment_120678538

This is why I was saying that they were lucky if he moves out without a fight.

After 5 years cohabiting he has gained rights.

Now my understanding is , it's very much case by case as to how much or little the person is entitled to. It does however have the potential to turn into a rather messy and most likely costly situation, though if he puts up a fight.

clarabell123

Thanks everyone, plenty of food for thought here.

We did go over quite recently, to help with finding a suitable place for my mother in law to move to and to speak to my mother in law’s partner. It was then that he confirmed he would be leaving by a certain date. The family in Ireland are being very supportive which is a great help. We go over as often as we can and her son visits her by himself too.

My mother in law is unable to retain new information and is frightened and confused. She constantly asks where she is and when she can go home. It is heart breaking to see her in this way, particularly because historically she was very sharp mentally. I am not sure that she can meaningfully reason or comprehend this situation but we will certainly check with the doctors.

we will look to get legal advice too. We know he hasn’t contributed because my mother in law was always very clear that she didn’t want there to be ambiguities about any entitlement, because she didn’t want him to have a claim on her assets if the relationship broke down. This is also why she didn’t marry or get engaged to him. I suspect the law might see it differently too given the length of time they have been together, but it was deliberate on her part. To be honest, all I really care about is ensuring that things are above board and that my mother in law is as comfortable as she can be - the fair deal point is not one I had considered so I will definitely check that out too.

I hope I am worrying about nothing and that he does what he said he would. But if he doesn’t, at least we now know it’s unlikely to be a straightforward process.

BanjoSpanner

We should also be mindful of the fact that the OP has not really told us much about the partner. For all we know so far, the partner may be a man in his 80s or 90s, who might be in ill health himself. Under those or similar circumstances, then the partner was obviously incapable of "taking care" of the mother in law in a way that the OP is suggesting that he should have been.

What if it turns out that in reality, the mother in law was taking care of the partner?? Until she could no longer do that and things went downhill for both of them. If the OP lives abroad, then they may not have been aware of that potential reality.

clarabell123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678545#Comment_120678545

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678557#Comment_120678557

Hey princess Calla, thanks for your reply. Just to confirm, her son did fly straight over on receipt of the news and has been working with the family over there to find a place for his mum to move to, and sort out paperwork and all those things. It’s been a difficult time for everyone, but you are right to surmise the actions of my mother in law’s partner are not helping.

clarabell123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678492#Comment_120678492

unfortunately not, and I think it is now too late for one to be granted. The family is muddling through with the paperwork as best as they can, and sorting out one thing at a time.

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678585#Comment_120678585

I think you would find that someone - either a solicitor or a member of the family - can be granted PoA, though it will be more complicated than if the mother had arranged it before she deteriorated.

apogee87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678585#Comment_120678585

I am new to this, i am also assuming looking for a place means nursing home. If this is the option ask about the fair deal government scheme for people in care and they will know, let the renting option rest for a while until you find out, i would leave the solicitor until you get this info...

clarabell123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678573#Comment_120678573

Hi banjospanner, thanks for your reply. The partner is in good health, and is a man in his 60s. He is in fact registered as a carer for his own mother, as I understand it. I am not suggesting that he should have looked after a partner with dementia, because that is something that often requires professional help, and he has existing caring commitments, but I do think he should have at least alerted my mother in law’s relatives to her condition. I am also disappointed that he does not seem to have taken any interest in my mother in law’s care since her diagnosis. My mother in law is younger than her partner. We live abroad but are often over and my husband is close to his family.

apogee87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678604#Comment_120678604

I am new to this, i am also assuming looking for a place means nursing home. If this is the option ask about the fair deal government scheme for people in care and they will know, let the renting option rest for a while until you find out, i would leave the solicitor until you get this info...

clarabell123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678591#Comment_120678591

Oh interesting, we will add this to the list to ask a solicitor about. Thank you for the suggestion.

BanjoSpanner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678608#Comment_120678608

Thanks for clarifying. I sympathise with your situation, I have dealt with something not too dissimilar in the past with my own mother.

Take your steer from a good solicitor would be my only remaining tuppence worth. Best of luck with it.

clarabell123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678623#Comment_120678623

Sorry to hear you have been through something similar and I hope things are more settled for you and your family now.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

pummice

if your mother in law is getting fair deal to pay for her nursing home care and she then receives additional income from letting her house, you will need to inform the hse of her change in circumstances and it may affect her eligibility for fair deal.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678591#Comment_120678591

If the mother is not of sound mind then it is too late for her to grant a power of attorney; this would be a court application at minimum.

looksee

Yes it would be a court issue, that's why I said it can be granted and it would be...complicated.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120702618#Comment_120702618

Prior to april this year they would have to apply to court to make their mother a ward of court. that is no longer possible The Assisted Decision Making (capacity) Act is now the appropriate legislation.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/legal-matters-and-health/assisted-decision-making-act/

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704153#Comment_120704153

Thanks for that, that's useful and a reminder to consider making some decisions.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704153#Comment_120704153

i made no reference to a ward of court; I said a court order would be required which is the procedure under that Act for a person who already lacks capacity.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712795#Comment_120712795

And that court order would have been to make them a ward of court prior to April.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712981#Comment_120712981

No before April it would have been to make someone their 'care representative' not ward of court - I went through the process for my uncle. Ward of court is when a person has nobody or there is dispute as to who makes decisions on their behalf or looks after their affairs.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713055#Comment_120713055

if a person has any real assets then there is (or rather was) no alternative to the ward of court process.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713188#Comment_120713188

And the only one who has raised the phrase is you despite no new applications being possible. The ADM requires a court order where there is no advanced direction made such as is the case here. Not sure why you are dragging things off topic raising old law?