New Prisons needed ?

Quitelife

It seems you have to kill someone to get a place in an Irish Jail these days.

Two local scumbags eventually got sentences for multiple offences earlier this year. One got 3 years in Februrary, out on temporary release now as Prisons are too full and their realesing smaller sentence prisoners?? The other got a year and was only in for a fortnight and also out due to lack of space.

Is it any wonder Judges are giving criminals a 100 plus convictions before they consider jailtime.

Irelands population has grown significantly over the last 20 years and no doubt become more violent but we've less prison space than ever. No surprise Dublin City Centre has so many scumbags causing bother or Burgulary gangs can rob houses , workmens tools etc etc all over rural ireland without any worries when theres no deterrent .

A huge prison needs to be built on that Thornton Hall site, which was acquired by the State years ago for the purpose of building a prison.

The State has more than enough money rolling around right now to get this done.

Then move all the prisoners from Mountjoy off to Thornton Hall, demolish Mountjoy, and build housing on the prime land in Dublin 7 that is walking distance from the city centre and served by various modes of public transport.

greencap

It would be pretty unforgiveable if govt dont spend on prisons, given the tsunami of repeat petty offenders, the growth of cartels and the budget surplus.

Viscount Aggro

Simon Harris just said in a statement... too many people are being sent to prison.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120650537#Comment_120650537

The complete opposite of the truth, when Anto is walking the streets with 183 previous convictions.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120649452#Comment_120649452

I did work on that with the ESB years ago. Huge amount of money already spent on it. Needs to be finished.

Government probably afraid of how much it'll cost them to finish. 😂

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120650551#Comment_120650551

2 x children's hospital worth if BAM get the contract 😮

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120649655#Comment_120649655

Seems to be a tsunami of murder lately too

newmember2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120650537#Comment_120650537

I'm no fan of SH but he did qualify that by saying too many non-violent offenders are being sent to prison, and also stated that we do indeed need more prison spaces in line with our increase in population.

...Ghost...

We absolutely need more prison space and have them located outside of the city and suburbs, but with good road connection. That Thornton Hall Site looks to be in the right area. We should built for capacity well above what we need, so we don't have scummers and scrotes with dozens and hundreds of convictions with no jail time. I would be in favour of a huge site out near Mullingar to cover the the long term, serious offenders. A smaller, prison maybe on the TH site which could double up and have a separate wing for young offenders.

A little OT, but would there be any appetite for small sentences with no conviction recorded? It could cover the minor, non-serious offense categories. Use for sentences of less than 30 days. Could be a great lesson and shock to the system for some people and wouldn't leave the stain of a criminal record.

kirk.

What's the reasoning behind Mullingar ?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120650931#Comment_120650931

it just sounds good to him, there is no reason or logic to it really.

people often suggest the state should build certain things or relocate certain services to the most random places without thinking as to whether it is workable or not, or about the fact that there is a reason certain services were never based in those areas in the first place.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120650892#Comment_120650892

would be a waste of money and capacity.

not viable and not going to happen quite rightly.

if someone needs to be in prison they should have a record, if they don't need to have a record they have no need to be in prison.

also building a prison near mullingar is stupid and unviable, prisons need to be built near and attached to the cities where the infrastructure they will need exists to a better standard.

cork, limerick, galway, waterford and maybe 2 in dublin, some of those replacing other prisons.

Quitelife

Why was Spike Islland ever closed ?

A place to house criminals well away from Law Abiding people to remind those there to desist from crime.

Everlong1

The usual suspects will be along shortly to dismiss you all as edgelords, trolls, angry old men shouting at clouds, there's no crime problem in Ireland, stats show it's the safest country in the world etc. etc.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655020#Comment_120655020

I would suggest it's not a waste of money if it makes society a safer place to be. The current system where criminals with hundreds of convictions walking the streets, committing crimes daily is not the way things should be for the excuse of a lack of space.

There are people who are convicted and jailed for not paying their TV license. Do they really need to have a record, or might it be better in these cases to have the threat of jail, but without ruining their lives and job prospects over one of the pettiest offenses on the books?

Why would building a large prison in Mullingar be stupid? Attaching them to cities seems stupid to me, as the costs sky-rocket and space is at a premium. Building in or near somewhere like Mullingar might not be what you think is the best idea, but stupid?

What would make it unviable exactly? It has excellent bus and rail links to most other parts of the country, not to mention the motorway network. Prisoners don't need to use their Leap Card while they are incarcerated and only the staff and prisoner transport services need to be considered. It's just as favourable as the Midlands Prison in Portlaoise and could replace, or re-purpose the Midlands Prison if a large prison was built in, or near Mullingar.

Having small prisons scattered all over the country is what is unviable, as they cost more to run per cell/prisoner than a properly designed, modern, secure and large prison.

Potential-Monke

Ireland has needed a new prison for decades. What we need now is new politicians who actually care about the people of the country and push this through. We'll get neither. Prisons will be mighty full when there's even more being sent there for being offensive with the new legislation coming in.

end of the road

@quitelife's post didn't quote for some reason but to answer your question.

spike island was difficult to work and more resource intensive then other prisons apparently, at least that is what i heard anyway.

it had no more of a deterrent effect then other prisons i would expect.

it's never going to reopen as a prison no matter how much some want it, it is now doing reasonably well as a tourist attraction.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655297#Comment_120655297

of course it is, if someone does not have a record, it's for an offence so low that prison is a complete waste of time and money to deal with.

we can still build a couple of prisons and have space to deal with people with a few convictions, without throwing people in who won't have a record at the end of it.

not having a television license should only have the amount owed as the fine, it should really be a civil offense rather then a criminal one.

the existence of infrastructure near the cities effectively negates the costs of building the prisons near them, where as building 1 in some random place like mullingar because it sounds good just wouldn't pass a BCR.

the prison for each city would replace portlaoise and castlerea ETC and the bigger prison in dublin would replace mountjoy ETC, ultimately saving costs in terms of the running of prisons.

some random place like mullingar isn't going to happen no matter how much you want it.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655288#Comment_120655288

Theres a cohort out there with numerous convictions who should be off the streets

Also the suspended sentences for violent assaults needs to be tackled

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655483#Comment_120655483

Yet, people get convicted and jailed and have criminal records for non-violent, fineable offences on a regular basis. But it's beyond comprehension to consider small jail terms as a deterrent without the life changing conviction for minor offences. Jail in such circumstances would be last resort, but wouldn't have the negative consequences of destroying a person's job prospects to allow them to contribute to society.

What are your expertise to say a prison in Mullingar wouldn’t pass a BCR? I think you're talking out of your hat now. I agree it wouldn't be built just because it sounds good though. It would be built however because like Portlaoise with almost the same population size, road, rail network and infrastructure, Mullingar would be a great potential site within 50 miles of the existing Midlands Prison and would still be in the Midlands with similar travel times from the main cities in Ireland. Mullingar isn't some rock off the coast of Donegal, which is where I would like to see deserving prisoners located.

Having a main central prison would be a cost saver requiring less resources to run. A few small prisons outside the major cities is just expensive and is why they are bursting beyond capacity.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655768#Comment_120655768

because small jail terms for such offenses not only don't work as a deterrent but would just cost to much when there are cheap alternatives available.

+ in a small country it would eventually get out that the individuals were in prison anyway so it's pointless and pissing money down the drain given that not having a criminal record yet jailing individuals anyway wouldn't remove the issue of those individuals finding it hard to get employment anyway.

we already have multiple prisons so building the prisons near the cities and replacing the likes of mount joy and all of the older prisons which are life expired won't cost any more then currently.

building it in mullingar would cost more because extra infrastructure would have to be built, + staff would have to come further to get to their job so harder to get staff.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120649452#Comment_120649452

Sorry, not going to happen. The bould Roddy O'Gorman has his eye on Thornton Hall.

Edit - link added https://extra.ie/2023/02/26/news/refugees-super-jail

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655810#Comment_120655810

I don't know but seems like a lot of conjecture here

I know prison is a detterent in my case .It's a place "you don't want to go" , as said to me

Lots of back of the stamp location experts in the last few posts too , makes for good reading 😁

why does a prison need to be in a city I don’t understand that argument?

So the inmates can go to penneys on Saturdays like? 😂 a large enough prison should be well able to incorporate the basic services the prisoners require, such as medical units etc.

As for court trips etc if they take a few extra hours so be it. Could allocate some space in the city prisons for holding inmates with a court sitting the next day or whatever. Kinda like they do in America, if you’re waiting to appear before a court you’re held in the police station temporarily.

Find a great big field in the middle of no where and build the prison there.

Fred Cryton

We will never get a prison built with the Greens in power. And the Greens are effectively in power in this country single-handedly.

We will only get a prison built if and when we get a political party into power which does not slavishly follow the woke agenda, which basically paints criminals as victims of their backgrounds rather than as adult humans with free will. And SF are most certainly not the asnwer to that - half of their councillors should probably be in a prison right now.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657543#Comment_120657543

it can be near the city, on the outside of it, it doesn't have to be in the middle of it and that has not been proposed, not by me anyway.

the problem is that court trips taking a couple of hours means garda resources gone for longer to deal with that which means they aren't elsewhere where they may be needed more.

for me it's all about efficiency really and using resources more effectively.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120658441#Comment_120658441

gardai don’t escort to and from court anyway in most cases it’s the prison service personnel.

Kato74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120649452#Comment_120649452

Look at the new children's hospital. The state are incompetent.

Imagine the high spec they would need to build it too in order to keep the snowflakes happy.

Ahh they all need to feel at home with their own private rooms, after all, they are human too.

Overheal

For the last time, yes.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120658452#Comment_120658452

Plus, they're already escorting prisoners from Limerick, Midlands, Castlerea, Cork, etc to and from court in Dublin (and other courts around the country) on a daily basis.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657904#Comment_120657904

This act of blaming the Greens singlehandedly for everything is nothing but absolute political illiteracy. The social policies of FF, FG, SD, Lab, SF and the Greens are all largely aligned, and have been for some a long time. The greens could be obliterated from existence tomorrow, and literally nothing would change in terms of policy in this country. That's why the make a good coalition partner: there's no difference between their policies and everyone else's. Yet for some reason they're the bogeyman. You have to face facts - the electorate or Ireland vote overwhelmingly and en-mass for centrist, social democratic parties. It's not foisted on us by some tiny band of evil "woke" masterminds from the Green Party.

The Greens weren't in power when the FG/Lab government of 2011 said:

“The Minister (Alan Shatter, FG) agrees with the Review Group’s view that prison overcrowding cannot be solved solely by building more prisons and that further steps are required to reduce the prisoner population.”

In fact, they didn't even win a singe seat in the 2011 General Election, so didn't even have a TD in the Dail at the time.

Development of Thornton Hall was finally cancelled in January 2019. The Greens were not in government at the time either. FG and some independents were, with the "confidence and supply" agreement with FF. The Greens had 2 TDs at the time, and were in opposition. It's the same as the way people blame the Greens for introducing the Co2 motor tax system, even though they weren't in Government when it was announced, and every other party were falling over themselves to say it was their idea.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655810#Comment_120655810

That's complete nonsense. Of course small jail terms would act as a deterrent. Nobody wants to be jailed for any period of time. Being stuck in jail for up to a month because of a minor offense, like an unpaid fine, or driving with no insurance or an expired license would most definitely be a deterrent. It's barking mad to say it wouldn't. What are the "cheap alternatives" you speak of? Do they act as a deterrent, or is it just that they are cheaper?

We may live in a small country, but Ireland isn't a village and i'm pretty sure that Jack applying for a job outside of his local town could do so without the rest of the country knowing he spent a weekend in jail for not paying his TV license....unless he received a criminal record, which woul show up in a search and hang over him as an impediment to his employment success. Money well spent, as Jack would have most likely paid his license fee, or the fine issued if he hadn't paid.

The prisons you speak of, you also acknowledge they are expired and need replacing. So, a big prison, or two would be a great idea to focus all the resources into one place rather than spread it around multiple locations and being a bigger drain on the public purse. Rebuilding the old prisons, especially on the existing sites would cost far more than selling the higher value land and building on a larger footprint outside the cities.

What additional infrastructure do you imagine a place like Mullingar would need for a large capacity prison? Drop a pin within a couple of clicks of the M4/N4 merging and you have good access roads and all other infrastructure needed to build a large scale prison. Mullingar was just a suggestion by the way. Could be any number of similar sites, including Portlaoise, but it would need a biger site, so maybe a few miles N/E just off the M7 slip at Madam's Road would be a better location.

Some existing staff would be inconvenienced, while others would be better off. It's not a good reason to hold back progress because some staff members will either lose their job, or have longer commutes.

Ireland must be the only country in the world where building critical infrastructure is somehow always a fools errand unless that infrastructure is in Dublin.

FGR

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120658452#Comment_120658452

Gardaí are touring the country every day of the week transferring remand prisoners.

It's something the Commission for the Future of Policing is looking to change - as it's a very large number of man hours. Does it mean more jobs via more Prison Officers? Sure - and worth every penny as far more personnel are needed.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659044#Comment_120659044

I accept your argument, however have you ever heard of a thing called "the Metro".... 🤣

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120649452#Comment_120649452

I'm not joking but one of the arguments made against closing down Mountjoy prison was that most of the inmates' families lived nearby...

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657543#Comment_120657543

All non-trial hearings (committal hearings and the like) should be by video link.

There's endless prison service and garda man-hours wasted on shuttling crims around the place, even within Dublin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667100#Comment_120667100

Laughing away here. Why am I not surprised. And those family members would have all the time in the world to travel around the country to visit their loved ones in prison on account of them not having any jobs to go to of course.

Water John

AFAIK if your sentence in Spain is 24 months or less you don't do any jail time.

Hotblack Desiato

In Ireland you don't do any jail time until your 301st conviction

twowheelsonly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660391#Comment_120660391

No they're not... Gardaí haven't escorted prisoners from Jails to court since pre-covid. They bring fresh committals from the District Courts to jail alright but that's about it - and that will (usually) be from the local court to the local prison.

A new jail isn't going to be built any time soon but a way of creating bed spaces might be to deport all the foreign nationals in our prisons. 600+ of them from a prison population of around 4,000. IMO if they've done something bad enough to end up in jail then it's highly unlikely that they're going to be productive citizens on their release. There's exceptions of course but that's going to be the case for the vast majority.