increasing water pressure from a cold water tank in the attic .... but by gravity not pump

Andy From Sligo

Hello all this could come across as pretty stupid question . the daughter has not long moved into house but its a bungalow (they are buying it so no landlord) the water out of the sink taps hot and cold is absolutely terrible , so weak. - then they have trouble with the 9kw electric showers , I have a feeling they are being fed from the header tank and not mains water, so they are weak and the temperature cannot be controlled properly , they are like scorching and cannot be controlled good with the temperature dial (although they are pumped 9kw showers), I checked the filters in the shower and they are clean , no I just reckon weak trickle of water from the header again.

So I know with header tank the higher up the better ... but there is no higher up it could go because its a bungalow - but what about actually moving the tank way way away from the bathroom up the other end of the house (I realise more piping needed) but is gravity just dependent on height of the header tank or distance of the pipes it has to travel through pipes from the bottom of the header tank? - IE like with longer piping/distance from header tank to bathroom with the gravity pick up velocity as it travels through the longer pipes? (even as I write this I am thinking in my head no)

So they are adamant they dont really want pumps (like salamander etc) installed in attic or hot press mainly because of noise every time a tap turn on , and especially at nights (I did suggest maybe using a timeswitch at night on the pump so if someone got up in night then it wouldnt come on)

any other ideas to boost up the hot and cold tank fed water pressures throughout the house to a better level please?

The Continental Op

Height is the only thing that will help Andy. Distance just makes it worse (marginally) due to pipe friction.

Problem might just be poor water pressure from the mains, if there is an outside tap what is the pressure like on that.

The other issue you can have is just the volume of water you can get, pressure might be really high but if the flow rate is low you will get the problems you are indication. Answer I think is a large header tank in the roof for volume and pumped showers from the header tank. You just build up a store of water from the poor supply so you have it when needed. Pressure will be low but you will have plenty of water.

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587779#Comment_120587779

thanks for that - mains water is ok'ish but not brilliant either, wouldnt splash up in your face kind of pressure when the cold tap is turned on in the kitchen sink ... I would say that their cold water mains pressure is the same pressure as my hot water mains in my house which is 2 story house with header tank in attic.

their toilets take ages filling up after flushing too - so I say what it needs still is a whole pumped system put on there still unless there is some other way I dont know about

The Continental Op

Just putting the right seat on the toilet cistern valves can make a decent difference to how fast they fill. The low pressure version for traditional ball cocks has a huge diameter opening compared to the standard version.

Std

v

Low Pressure

Andy From Sligo

thanks - their cisterns have this type of ballcock in them:

NattyO

As already said, height will make the difference, not distance.

The showers will not operate if the water pressure is too low - whatever problem you have with control, it is unlikely to be water pressure related - especially as they are pumped showers, so the water pressure is regulated by the shower itself.

A properly fitted pressure pump, isolated from the joists, is very quiet - the loud ones were incorrectly placed straight onto the joists or attic floor, they should be isolated to prevent noise and vibration travelling through the structure.

Is the tank sitting on the attic joists or raised up on a frame? If sitting on the joists, raising it up to the peak of the rafters can make a noticeable difference.

FishOnABike

One other option that might help would be to replace the pipework between the header tank and shower/sink/cistern with larger diameter pipework. Ensure they have individual runs from the tank rather than tee-ing off a shared run.

10-10-20

I'll second the pump option, Andy. Yes, it can be a little annoying, but it's very quickly overcome by the mind especially when you have the level of flow that you need. I have mine on a remote timer, I can control it outside of the times where it shuts off (between 21:15 and 07:00) in case somebody needs a late shower.

I was initially skeptical of mine also, I figured that it would burn out within a few years, but it's now 20 years running with only one minor issue (needed replacement circuit board due to a defect, supplied FOC by Salamander at the time) - so paying for a good quality pump does count.

Dayor Knight

The type of taps and piping you use can make a big difference. We have a regular tank in the attic and a mixer tap on the bath we put in about ten years ago that gives perfect shower pressure without a pump. To the extent that we never now use the electric shower in the same spot. The bathroom is on the first floor, so the height distance from the tank shouldn't be too much different to yours (tank is elevated in the attic alright). I was surprised the difference the right tap made. Similarly, when replacing our kitchen sink the guy put in the wrong type of tap initially and it was taking forever to fill the sink. It was just a question of replacing with a low-pressure tap (which I assume means larger bore).

It's worth thinking about these things before going to the expense on installing a pump....

I hope that helps.

cnocbui

A pump can be made quieter. Mine is located so it's rubber feet are directly on the concrete slab, not on laminate flooring or such like that would vibrate and amlify the sound. I have made sure the pipes connected to it are not in direct physical contact with any others so they don't vibrate against them and generate noise. Putting foam insulating sleeves on them would have been an idea also.

There is some noise, but it's quiet and easily tollerated. If I wanted it to be quiter I'd build a housing for it out of very thick chip board and line it with acoustic dampending foam with the same stuff sealing the holes where the pipework passed through. Id also get some sorbothane foam to further isolate the feet from the slab. Sorbothane is an extremely effective material for absorbing mechanical vibrations and stopping them being transmitted.

Having experienced a marine engine in a boat inside a sound insulating housing, and the difference in noise between lid on and off, I'd say such an enclosure would make it near silent. I'd probably try foam seals on the airing cupboard door first.

If you have ever heard a car engine running with the exhaust disconnected, and experienced the difference between that and when it's connected, you might get the idea that silencing a small whine from a tiny electric motor is perfectly feasible.

High end hi-fi speakers manufacturers put a lot of effort into sound deadening the cabinets so that the sound emitted from the rear suface of the speaker cones is fully absorbed and silenced so that the cabinet doesn't vibrate and produce unwanted noise, so the end result is only sound from the front surface of the speaker cone is heard. They basically do this by making the cabinet as stiff as possible and filling the interior with acoustic foam.

The head of pressure gravity problem cant be fixed, the noise from a tiny pump can.

Sleepy

I'd second the comment on the type of taps / fixings in use - just replacing the hose on our gravity fed shower on the bath mixer for one with a wider bore effectively doubled the pressure from the shower head.

Also, and this may be a dumb suggestion since it's so obvious but is the tank in the attic covered? Could there be a build up of detritus / bat or other rodent droppings (or corpses) in there that could have blocked some of the pipework? Maybe one of the professionals can clarify if it's safe to do but I'd wonder would pouring a bottle of drain cleaner into the header tank, leaving it to do it's thing for a few hours and then flushing the system through could be worth a go before spending big money replacing everything / getting a pump fitted?

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120639222#Comment_120639222

thanks, yep good point, but the tank is totally covered i think last time i went up and looked at it