The XX/XY Files

homer911

Nick Park of Solid Rock, Drogheda; and EAI; and past-poster on this forum, is producing

"A series of messages, podcasts and videos from Evangelical Alliance Ireland on Sexuality and Gender"

Episode Archive: https://www.evangelical.ie/xx-xy-files-archive/

Current Episode : https://www.evangelical.ie/xx-xy-files/

It will be interesting to see how this series develops

smacl

Seems like a rather extreme case of moral relativism to compare ancient Rome to modern day Ireland in these first few episodes. My take on why there is such a divergence between Christian and secular morality is that secular morality continues to evolve with society and is based on a broad consensus and accumulated experience of how we should best treat one another with kindness and respect. Christian morality, by comparison, too often remains rooted in the bible of the past and is largely static as a result. As an example of this, in secular society today we consider it immoral to discriminate against a person (or couple) based on their sexual orientation and hence fully support same sex civil marriage. This is the considered moral position of the majority of people in this country, both Christian and non-Christian alike. While this may seem at odds with the bible for literalists, I think most Christians in this country have no issue with reconciling the simple truth that their religion is one that is fundamentally kind and respectful of others which is not in opposition to evolving morality. I'd also be concerned that there have been very many cases throughout history where biblical literalism has been used as an excuse for the worst extremes of bigotry, homophobia and misogyny. With this in mind, it will certainly be interesting to see how Nick Park develops his line of reason.

homer911

I have been following this series - this week Enoch Buke is discussed and how Christians should respond when their beliefs are challenged in the workplace. I thought this was very good..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q9SjV7p5Kk

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804363#Comment_120804363

I think he's right in that the Burkes have done no favours whatsoever to the broader Christian community. What he doesn't really address is the clash between the right to freedom of religious expression on the one hand and the right for freedom from discrimination on the other. This gets particularly fraught in a school where the position held by an individual teacher comes into conflict with the school policy in relation to a minor. My opinion would be that freedom of religious expression does not extend to trampling over the similar rights of others. There is also an argument that the Catholic church have been trampling all over the freedom of religious expression of many non-Christian families for many generations by monopolising the school system, i.e. the baptism barrier. My feeling is the answer lies in more tolerance and common courtesy. Allowing individuals their own personal pronouns and gender identity may seem like a nonsense to some but we live in a diverse society with many and varied beliefs. Part of getting along with one another has to be respecting others beliefs, even if they are opposed to our own, once this is clearly reciprocated. There do seem to be quite a number of extreme factions out there who seem very keen to polarize society and use issues such as transgenderism to sow discord and cause trouble.

Manach

You might want to re-think your derived opinion if leaning on the Irish Times of all sources. Prior to the Bismarckian model of schooling (crafted to made obedient nationalised workers), across all Europe (except post-Revolutionary France) almost every local schools were a parochial model as the various Churches were key in providing education to the young of the parish with figures such as Edmund Rice being leading figures in laying the foundation of the educational sector that mirrored the wishes of the parishioners and not the centralised state.

Peregrinus

it may be true that until relatively recently schools (in Europe, at any rate) were predominantly provided by churches but, if you think about it, this would suggest that they were likely to be responsive first and foremost to the needs and values of the churches. Of course, in a religiously homogenous community, these might align fairly closely with the needs and values of the community, but we live now in communities that are much more religiously diverse.

One response to this is segregated schools and, to be fair, that's a policy that worked quite well in Ireland for a long time. But it no longer works; because the system is institutionalised and difficult to rebalance, it hasn't kept up with the changing religious demography of Ireland; Catholic schools are vastly over-represented in the system and schools for the non-religious vastly under-represented. This is pretty well universally accepted, but that doesn't mean it's an easy problem to address.

Further, there are different ways to address it. One option would be to force through a rebalancing (necessarily, using state power). That assumes that you buy into the idea of a segregated system, and you think the only problem is the disproportion. It would be very disruptive and unpopular, since it involves changing the patronage/character of many schools against the wishes of, in most cases, the majority of the parents and school community, and you can see how that might not work out well. Or might not work at all, which seems to be the current state of affairs.

The other approach is to argue that Catholic schools (and we are mainly talking about Catholic schools here; they are the ones who are over-represented in the system) should be suitable places for the education of non-Catholics and that, if they aren't, they should become so. (This is, basically, an approach that can be found within the Catholic church's own view of Catholic education; it should be appropriate for all.)

In the Irish context the removal of the baptism barrier would be a step in the direction of fitting Catholic schools to educate the whole community though, obviously, there's a lot more that would need to be done. And that's where the issues that smacl raises come in; if Catholic schools are to educate the children of a diverse community they have to accommodate, foster and even celebrate that diversity, and they have to draw on Catholic educational thinking and traditions which will do that.

(Same goes for schools of other Christian/other religious traditions. But in the Irish educational landscape the issue mainly arises in relation to Catholic schools.)

Hotblack Desiato

Nitpick:

Catholic schools are vastly over-represented in the system and schools for the non-religious vastly under-represented.

Educate Together and other multi-denominational schools are most decidedly not schools for the non-religious, they're schools for everyone, and that was explicitly their intention from day one.

About half of kids enrolled in ETs receive Catholic sacraments (they just prepare outside of the school day)

Just because one is a Catholic, Church of Ireland or whatever does not mean that one thinks that having children segregated along sectarian lines is good for either kids or society.

Many ETs are the only co-educational English language option in their area, too.

BTW only minority religious ethos schools (almost all CoI) are still allowed to use religion as an admission criterion.

Also, what a ridiculous mention of Bismarck up thread. State-funded primary education existed in Ireland long before he came to preeminence in Prussia never mind Germany. The Stanley letter got the ball rolling in 1831, but to the great and ongoing detriment of everyone on this island the vision of education integrated across religious divides was obstructed and ultimately destroyed by the churches.

Peregrinus

Didn't intend to present Educate Together schools as schools primarily for the non-religious; I am aware that they are schools for everyone. My point was more that, for non-religious parents, ET schools cater better to them/are more attractive to them than Catholic schools. I'm sorry I didn't make this clearer.