General Power of Attorney & Banking

Outkast_IRE

I am having an issue with PTSB not recognising a signed and witnessed general power of attorney.

Our elderly mother is in a home , is of sound mind but doesn't want to / refuses to deal with any day to day banking issues , no access to online account , rarely leaves the nursing home so refuses to go in branch. So she agreed to sign a general power of Attorney to leave us help in these issues. It was signed and witnessed by the nursing home manager.

Upon presenting this PTSB has responded the following "If the GPA has not been witnessed by a solicitor, the customer should be asked to attend a solicitor to execute the GPA and the solicitor should be asked to provide an Affidavit of Attesting Witness"

I thought the idea of the general power of attorney was to simplify this for people of sound mind without the need to involving the legal profession wasting everyone's time and money. ? From reading the power of attorney act I don't see them having a sound basis to demand the above.

Any thoughts on the above appreciated.

A

whippet

I wouldn't even consider doing anything like this without some oversight / advice from a legal professional. The bank are probably of the same mindset.

Outkast_IRE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120501344#Comment_120501344

That's grand as an opinion, but the mechanism is written into law for this . As soon as she becomes incapable of giving instructions or not of sound mind it's void.

Lenar3556

Allowing a third party to exercise control over a bank account is a serious matter and the individual granting such control needs to be fully aware as to the implications of what they are doing.

The banks insistence that the donar has received independent legal advice is reasonable in my view.

Whilst it may not be specifically provided for in the act, you would have to appreciate the very significant responsibility that the bank has to their account holder. It is not unreasonable that they be satisfied as to the bona fides of the situation.

You mention that your mother does not wish, and refuses to deal with certain financial matters. I would ask why is that? And what are the consequences for her of this decision? Does this in itself give rise to a question of capacity?

Mrs OBumble

A solicitor can visit the nursing home and do the necessary.

The bank is right. A health professional, especially one is benefiting from caring for the person, is not an independent witness.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120501366#Comment_120501366

Is it written into law? Any person may grant a power of attorney but I suspect the bank is correctly concerned as to whether it would be expected that the procedures used for an enduring power of attorney would be followed for someone in this position. This requires a medical assessment and legal advice, notice to relevant relatives etc. As they are aware that your mother is in a nursing home and had not visited the bank in some time the bank would rightly be concerned as to potential vulnerability eyc.

Boardnashea

There is new legislation coming in very soon that is going to change all this again for people who need assistance.

https://www.courts.ie/assisted-decision-making-circuit-court

The Act is from 2015 but is only being implemented now!

hullaballoo

General power of attorney is no use if the donor becomes incapable of making decisions in their own right. The situation is what the Enduring power of attorney is for. It is rightly more difficult to put in place although not that difficult at the same time. It requires what are essentially notice parties in the event that the power is proposed to be used to prevent abuse.

Outkast_IRE

It is certainly not an enduring power of attorney we want or need at this time. She is fully capable of making decisions but often wont make any or refuse to and ask for someone to help her take care of a situation. There is a bit of depression diagnosed , but she has all mental faculties, but would be stubborn, she has it in her head that she isnt going to visit a bank branch, so she cant be forced.

We will pursue getting a solicitor to assist if thats what ticks the box for the bank.

rock22

quote "She is fully capable of making decisions but often wont make any or refuse to and ask for someone to help her take care of a situation. There is a bit of depression diagnosed , but she has all mental faculties, but would be stubborn, she has it in her head that she isnt going to visit a bank branch, so she cant be forced."

Am I right in saying that you want this power of attorney as you cannot force her to do as you want?

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120501366#Comment_120501366

And how would you responded if you found out that some Tom, Dick or Harry had presented a document to the bank claiming to be from your mother and they acted on it??? The bank is not refusing to accept the GPA, they are requiring that it be properly executed and that is the correct procedure for them to follow anything else would leave them open to a legal action.

You can get a solicitor to do a house call and have them properly daft and execute the GPA. You can expect that the bank will verify it with the solicitor and they will invoice you for doing so as well.

ohnonotgmail

Are banks obliged to act on a general power of attorney, even one that is properly drafted?

Claw Hammer

The only person the banks are obliged to deal with is their own customer. If a solicitor witnesses the power of attorney, and there is a later problem such as someone claiming undue influence or forgery, the banks may have the solicitor's professional indemnity insurance to fall back on.

Outkast_IRE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510411#Comment_120510411

you are very much incorrect. The power of attorney is to be able to carry out her implicit instructions to help manage her affairs.

I like how you highlighted parts to suit your train of thought and ignore the sentence where i state she "asks someone to help her take care of the situation". As also stated above there is a bit of depression going on, whereby her motivation is low to carry out an action but she is fully capable of giving instruction to others to help her. Currently we are limited in what we can help with.

An example is right now her current account balance is very low and she suspects the nursing home are adding on additional charges ( Big write up on this topic in national newspapers a few weeks back) , she wants us to be able to monitor her account via online banking and make sure no funny business is going on, or fraud from another source etc.