N11 Foster Avenue Traffic Lights Questions

Victorian House

Hi,

There is a new sequence of traffic lights at the junction of Foster Avenue and the N11.

First sequence:

Then it changes to (apologies for the poorly drawn sign as I didn't take another photo):

From a rules of the road perspective, is it only cars that are allowed to proceed directly through the junction on the green arrow?

magicbastarder

that's odd; i don't know the answer but i don't see what would be the issue with proceeding straight on if motorists are allowed proceed straight on?

CramCycle

They must have made a mistake as the whole point of the straight ahead only was to let cyclists at the lights go.

Paddigol

I noticed that the other day too. As a cyclist that junction has been a pain in the hoop for years. They've managed to go to the trouble of making it worse. I often used to take the main lane just to avoid left-hookers on the solid green light, this new sequence is even more of a reason to ditch the bike lane.

Why can our road engineers get nothing right when it comes to cycling infrastructure? IT'S NOT THAT HARD!!

Victorian House

Yeah, I can see the point of a red cyclist light if the left turn light is green for motorists. Obviously I'd like to spend as little time waiting at lights as possible but I would also have a concern if I was stopped waiting for the cycle lights and another cyclist isn't expecting it and potential for a collision.

Statler

If it's like the lights at the Leeson St corner of Stephen's Green there's an induction loop sensor in the road like there is for cars, so the green bike light only activates if a bike is at the lights. Even if you get a green bike light it doesn't last long at all, most of the time the bike light is going to be red. I've also found when I've stopped on the red light that (some) cars who are turning left slow or stop to let me go straight on, they obviously don't notice or understand the red bike light.

Macy0161

It's another case of ceding priority - I've been taking the road on that section unless the entire junction has a red. Also, the bit behind the bus stop can be dodgy with phone zombies.

Cookie_Monster

Why is the cycle lane even on the left of the left turning lane instead of moving into the middle of the left turn and straight lanes in advance of the junction, really bad design, nevermind the lights adding to the stupidity

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443014#Comment_120443014

Firstly you'd need 2 lanes then as some cyclists might be going left. Then you'd have an arrangement as seen on the N11 and elsewhere where the middle cycle lane is routinely referred to as a "murder strip" due to the conflict with cars moving into the filter lane:

the issue with cycle lanes is if they're built to safest best practice, you end up with more separate movements at each junction and even if the cycle lane is given a decent level of priority (which it won't) it's still going to be slower than cycling on the road. And then if you do cycle on the road you get drivers blasting their horns and waving their arms at you for not using the cycle lane.

Having said all that, I can't think why the cycle lane light would be red when cars can go straight, where's the conflict? Cycle lane should only have a red when the left filter is green or the pedestrian lights are green. Maybe the pedestrian lights are green across the top of Foster Ave and it's to stop cyclists turning left? In which case it's badly designed.

magicbastarder

in the second photo - is there a pedestrian light on fosters avenue which is obscured in that photo?

perhaps there's no left turn allowed there if there is one (and it's green) - but since the bike light is general (and not split into 'straight on' and 'left' lije the main lights are), it must stay red to prevent cyclists from turning left and crossing the ped light.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443135#Comment_120443135

Firstly you'd need 2 lanes then as some cyclists might be going left

this seems to have been catered for (in a ham fisted way) previously, but not visible in the photos above - by sending left turning cyclists onto the path?

Mav11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443014#Comment_120443014

Because that would be the right way to do it!

Fred Cryton

Can we acknowledge the fact that many and probably most cyclists just go right through red lights when it suits them please. And right through pedestrians trying to cross in a lot of cases. They are a menace and now the Greens are in think they own the road.

homer911

Contact DLR, that's ridiculous

magicbastarder

hello and welcome to the cycling forum. please read the charter, especially point 9 about negativity towards cyclists. you're welcome to discuss the topic at hand, but not use this as an opportunity to rant about cyclists.

Macy0161

Just to say the old design wasn't great at this junction - rather than a bike red light and a green left light, it perhaps should've been a flashing amber for both when vehicles were allowed to proceed left? Cautions the cyclist going straight on while not ceding priority, doesn't give automatic "right" to the vehicle turning left (and also signals caution).

ath262

the 'no left turn' traffic light setting is beacuse the predestrain lights are green at the bottom of Foster Avenue

this only activates if a pedestrian request button is pressed

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443553#Comment_120443553

sample thread started by that poster: "The Greens want to lower our standard of living - this is worse than communism"

Another one for the Ignore List.

Victorian House

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443260#Comment_120443260

I'll keep an eye on this tomorrow and give an update. My recollection is that there was a separate cycling light at the crossing and it was amber.

The light shown above is a cycling light:

My initial question was regarding the laws around cycling lights - are they legal stops for cyclists or can we pick and choose? Or just legal stops if you're choosing the cycle lane and the main lights take priority if you are cycling on the roadway?

I remember a cyclist telling me before that the sign on the East Link Bridge was unlawful about no-cyclists so I didn't know if we can always choose to be part of the road.

magicbastarder

there was a 'cyclists dismount' sign on the east link at one point, but IIRC it was removed after a member of the public brought it to the attention of the council, it had no legal standing.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443294#Comment_120443294

...and straight into a lamp-post

CramCycle

I've taken the lane here since it was laid out like this, insanity to go in the bike lane if you are carrying any speed. Plenty of cars jump the red as well if they think there are no cyclists who are conveniently coming along in their (and I hate the excuse) blind spot. If the light is green I just slot in line with the bus lane and if its red I just come through between the bus lane and the next lane.

Paddigol

Having witnessed it this morning, my days of ever using it are done. Essentially, a green light for cyclists comes on at same time as straight-ahead traffic light. Then the cycling light turns red while the left turn vehicle light goes green(and the straight-ahead traffic light stays green). So back to ceding priority, only now its even more dangerous as you have cyclists on the bike lane (who are either used to the old sequence or just see the big green 'straight-ahead' arrow and miss the small bicycle traffic light) who continue straight through the junction while the left-turn vehicle light has turned green.

For me, not worth the risk or inconvenience of using it.

loyatemu

that's the same arrangement as Temple Hill/Monkstown Road on the Rock Bypass and it's a PITA (it's probably worse there as straight on and left turn are green for the road at the same time and get 90% of the green time). I'm not sure how else you can do it though, as they have to give green time to left turning traffic and they have to make the cycle lane red to accommodate it.

If it was in the Netherlands the cycle lane would swing left and cross Foster Ave back from the junction at a zebra crossing, but even there if it was a very busy junction they'd have to use lights.

Victorian House

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446948#Comment_120446948

Yes, I took another photo this morning here - after the full red light sequence, it changed to the following:

I think my situation yesterday must have occured when a pedestrian pressed the crossing across Foster Avenue which triggered the cycle lights remaining at red.

homer911

I notice on the opposite side of the road, outside the hotel, they have introduced traffic lights for the cars at the pedestrian crossing. This is a help, I have been cycling south in the past and gone through this just as pedestrians have stepped out in front me (sorry, no pic)

LeoD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443305#Comment_120443305

The design layout you are talking about is usually referred to as a 'murder strip'. As you can guess by the name, it's not considered very safe.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446948#Comment_120446948

I found that the cycle green light wasn't triggering for me. I was left sitting waiting for two full cycles of lights, and eventually had to break the lights. I had taken the main vehicle lane past the bus stop, then cut into the bike lane close to the lights. Maybe the trigger is a bit further back?

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120501011#Comment_120501011

I just stay in the lane or to the right of cars in the turning/bus lane. Going back into the bike lane seems pointless until after the junction. You can go through the junction for both the straight ahead and straight ahead/turning light so loads more time as well.

Cookie_Monster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120500821#Comment_120500821

Never heard that term before in my life and there are a huge number of them over here in my locale that work perfectly well, I've never felt unsafe using them on a near daily basis. (In NZ)

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509209#Comment_120509209

Yeah, you're probably as well off in the middle lane.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509330#Comment_120509330

They don't work here because Irish drivers in many situations forget that the left side of their vehicle exists, they are in fact fine if the road users are competent. The one outside UCD works fine but I think that is just a case of there are so many and many of those turning in are aware that many of those on their left are fellow students or staff that it clicks but in many situations it simply doesn't. The amount of times I have seen people turn in and then use the SMIDSY excuse even though you could see their face in their rear view mirror. The inability to use an indicator either at all or correctly, is like a slowly spreading pathogen that also needs to be stamped out. I don't use them if the road and my ability allows me not too.

loyatemu

the other problem with the so-called murder strip design is that when traffic is heavy the left-turning queue just sits on top of the cycle lane and you can't get past.

Any cyclist who routinely cycles in heavy traffic isn't going to be phased by cycling between 2 lanes of traffic on that design, but one of the main points of building more cycle lanes is to get more people cycling, and they won't do it unless they feel safe. One of the problems with discussion on here is that it's 99% regular cyclists who are used to interacting with traffic, but there's a huge cohort of occasional or non-cyclists who would cycle more often but won't do it in traffic.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509209#Comment_120509209

I’m still curious as to whether they monumentally screwed up the implementation by having a bicycle only light that doesn’t trigger for bicycles.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510389#Comment_120510389

Ha, I never went in the bike lane but presumed it would trigger. Does it just go automatically with the straight ahead arrow every rotation? Lots of other new lights in the area have bike sensing magnets.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510596#Comment_120510596

I gave up waiting after two full cycles of the lights and pushed ahead on the main green arrow. I’m just wondering if others have noticed that cycle lights trigger for cyclists.

osiri

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120447324#Comment_120447324

It looks to be working well here in fairness. There's even a sign up about the change in traffic signal sequence.

As the number of people using bikes to get around increases, well designed, segregated cycling infrastructure will make much more sense. Cyclists will have to cede priority in some instances and motorists will have to cede priority in other cases. In the case above motorists turning left have to cede priority initially. Then I presume bikes going straight in the bike lane will have to stop to allow cars turn left even though cars can probably continue straight. Net result is some minor delays but good segregation encouraging more people to use bikes to get around.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510775#Comment_120510775

Had a look and I think it is about 3 metres before the lights on the ground, just as the lane splits to left turn (mount the pavement) and straight on. There is an octagon outline of black tar, if you roll directly over it, you should get a bike light on the next round of lights.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120511581#Comment_120511581

Thanks, I’ll keep an eye out