Accusations of police violence against women in the UK, some sources claim Ireland not dissimilar?

Sugar_Rush

UK investigation:

https://youtu.be/EAJ0fccchbs

Certain "harm reduction" information gathering sources claim situation with Irish police is no different:

https://twitter.com/UglyMugsPublic/status/1634136022417063937?s=20

I have no insights on what may or may not happen, therefore no opinion.

Perhaps someone does?

Jim_Hodge

So nothing but an anonymous tweet?

Manach

Mod Note: Given the nature of the claim, there should likely be more substance for discussion than one allegation.For the time being, the thread can stay open but would need more discussion evidence than the initial post to remain so.

Sugar_Rush

So, a specific case report:

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/garda-accused-of-rape-says-he-arrested-prostitute-then-later-returned-to-brothel-to-have-sex-with-her/31373259.html

There may be more?

But that was readily accessible, so to offer some means to validate the contention of the twitter link.

The other side to the argument may well be, the twitter link is from an account that's registered to the same trading address a prostitute directory (i.e. it's a harm reduction, information sharing medium for prostitutes).

The latter industry isn't exactly known for honesty, so could those claims be some overblown?

It would stand to reason there may be occasional occurrences of malpractice, but their medium claims it's much more common - issues of malpractice from a government body, subject to inspection.

The intention of this discussion was I guess to get input and try and put some perspective on both sides of the accusations/claims?

Sugar_Rush

An additional report with data cited by UL:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/sex-worker-face-discriminatory-behaviour-from-gardai-report-finds-1354712.html

Entitled I Must Be Some Person: Accounts from Street Sex Workers in Ireland, the report, which is based on interviews with a sample of 25 street sex workers based in Limerick (10) and Dublin (15) found that “one in five” street sex workers interviewed “had experience of being sexually exploited by the gardaí”.

Participants said they had “a deep mistrust” of An Garda Síochána and said they felt “discouraged” to report crimes to Gardaí including “rape” and “violence” for a range of reasons.

Some of these reasons include; a history of trauma inflicted by aggressive Garda tactics from the past among sex workers, and the belief and experience of some officers sexually exploiting street sex workers and abusing their power.

Previous cases of sex workers reporting incidents of physical assault or rape, which were dismissed or mishandled, not leading to receiving help or justice, and a wide-spread stigma around sex work in the Irish society, and hence, sex workers being afraid of publicity

Not to be excessively prejudiced, but these claims are from active prostitutes who can be known to fabricate details as a means to sway opinion in their favor.

And of course by way of their handlers/facilitators, are also known for perpetrating scams, malfescence and violence themselves.

So as a discussion in relation to humanities, the question is;

Does one believe the claims of

1) a state body subject to government inspection and scrutiny?

2) or the claims of a collective of prostitutes, run by prostitutes and convicted pimps and criminals, who essentially make a living through dishonesty?

.......

I'd like to think I take an unbiased approach, but there is the question that requires examination.

.......

The postulated end goal for the said prostitute/pimp collective being,

end to the policing of sex workers by An Garda Síochána.

i.e. the collective of prostitutes are claiming they no longer wish to be subject to any kind of state organized regulatory scrutiny.

Which kind of translates as, "we want to run our scams and degeneracy with no state supervision and complete impunity".

As least as I understand what they've put forth?

Sugar_Rush

Irish times report and police malpractice:

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/2022/08/25/gardai-to-examine-report-alleging-exploitation-of-sex-workers/

The Garda Ombudsman Commission (Gsoc), which investigates complaints against gardaí, noted the “distressing accounts” given by the sex workers and said it takes allegations of sexual exploitation extremely seriously.

Gsoc said it was not able to provide figures on how many gardaí had been investigated for misconduct related to sex workers but that it had dealt with such cases in the past. A spokesman pointed to a 2015 case where a garda was fined for having sex with a sex worker he was investigating.

One woman reported approaching gardaí in a frightened state after a man had tried to pull her into a car. She asked the gardaí to help her get home but they drove off in the opposite direction, she said.

Another interviewee described a sex worker telling gardaí she had been raped and badly assaulted. “If we charge him we’re going to charge you as well,” the gardaí allegedly told the victim.

Interviewees detailed various interactions with gardaí, including one who allegedly asked a sex worker what her rates are. The woman said she did not deal with gardaí, to which he replied: “You will do business with me. I need you to co-operate.”

Gardaí referred to new sex workers as “fresh meat”, made inappropriate jokes about oral sex or asked “what would you do for a tenner?”, the report said.

Sugar_Rush

https://uglymugs.ie/wp-content/uploads/Press-Release-End-Garda-Politicking-on-Prostitution-final.pdf

Claims from the escort-directory associated harm-reduction medium:

The serious problem of garda members abusing people in sex work and sex trafficking, in particular abuse of power for sexual gain, is also not being addressed

Peregrinus

Sex workers are generally at elevated risk of being the victims of sexual offences, sexual abuse and sexual exploitation. I don't think anybody would dispute that.

It follows that, if and to the extent that there is a culture within the guards that accommodates or encourages sexual abuse/exploitation, it would not be surprising to discover that sex workers are disproportionately affected by this. In fact, we'd pretty much expect that they would be.

And, given that there is some evidence of such a culture within the police in the UK, it would also not be surprising if such a culture was manifested in the guards - the social and cultural influences and context are very similar in the two countries.

So, yeah. I'm not minimising the threat to sex workers here.

But it seems to me just wrong to say that "with garda there isn't the oversight or transparency or accountability to make it visible". There is an internal garda complaints procedure, and there is an external regulator in the form of GSOC, just as in the UK. If it's suggested that the Irish processes are less effective than the corresponding UK processes, well, I'm certainly open to that possibility, but I do need to see some evidence.

Sugar_Rush

So it's possible that an unregulated and un-state-sanctioned organization of what are essentially criminals (according to Irish law), are using smeer tactics to tarnish the name of a state body, as a means to facilitate their criminal enterprise and enhance and placate the scam practices of their advertisers?

Cause the contents of that statement via the harm-reduction twitter account are pretty-heavy-duty, and every other case report (including that collected for the UL study) are essentially compilations of anecdotal data from prostitutes (who's honesty is questionable at the best of times).

.....

I'm merely attempting to establish discussion for my own clarity more than anything.

Mrs OBumble

What evidence do you have that women who work in the sex industry have honesty that is questionable at the best of times?

Would they be any less honest than politicians, journalists or real-estate agents, for example?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368352#Comment_120368352

Although there are various offences associated with the sex industry, prostitution itself is not a crime in Ireland. I think an approach which starts by branding all sex workers as "essentially criminals" is, um, not likely to be an even-handed exploration of the issue of the abuse or exploitation of sex workers.

The tweet from uglymugs looks a bit overblown to me — the statement that there's insufficient or no "oversight or transparency or accountability" of the guards is excessive, for one thing. But it's undeniable that (a) sex workers are vulnerable to exploitation, and (b) the guards are given powers and status, and those with powers/status are in a position to abuse them. So, yeah, the intersection between the sex industry and the police is an area where, um, conditions are favourable to abuse and exploitation, so we would want to be vigilant about that.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368482#Comment_120368482

What they do is illegal, on multiple fronts. Therefore their honesty is questionable, at the best of times. To buy or offer sexual services is clearly illegal.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368492#Comment_120368492

It's not an offence to sell sexual services in Ireland.

(It is an offence to sell the sexual services of someone else. It's an offence to operate a brothel, or to control or direct a person who sells sexual services. Thus brothel-keeping, pimping, etc are offences, but prostitution itself is not.)

Sugar_Rush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368482#Comment_120368482

It's an educated observation.

The trade itself is based around deception, for one thing.

So by default of their occupation, they're going to be prone to lies and deceit.

And it's historical precedent and should be relatively intuitively apparent.

Comparing the deceptive practices of a legitimate professional versus an individual whose primary job role essentially revolves around "the hustle", is really not apt.

Additionally, the latter are indeed subject to state regulatory scrutiny, which is really the point at hand here.

Due to the absence of this in the former, such accusations and manipulative practice as seen in the OP twitter link, can be made without being directly called into question. And typically when it comes to the "word" or claim of a man versus a woman (sex workers or their advertising platform in this case), initial bias tends to fall with the "more vulnerable".

Sugar_Rush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368489#Comment_120368489

Absolutely, 100%. Vigilence.

However, what that uglymugs platform is claiming (which is again, run out of the same office as a prostitute advertisement directory), is that police taking advantage of vulnerable sex workers happens so ubiquitously, that they basically want policy instated such that prostitutes should be able to practice with free reign, no inspection, "welfare checks" or regulatory scrutiny of any kind.

They want to operate completely separately of police interference.

A tactic which would not be uncharacteristic of, quite frankly, a hustler trying to make a score.

They seem to happily overlook the reality that the trade is run and facilitated by a whole bunch of some pretty scummy people, and for its very existence not to degenerate into a criminality/depravity free-for-all, it requires STRICT and consistent oversight and regulatory scrutiny (much more than is being allocated to it currently), in the same way as any other industry trying to "cash in" or make a "quick buck" does.

Notmything

Yet another thread by SR which ends up becoming a thread about sex workers.

Starting to come across as obsessive at this stage.

Dial Hard

Fair play, OP, you've managed to denigrate both the Gardaí and sex workers in one handy thread.

🙄🙄🙄

Genuine question, have you ever posted *anything* that wasn't absolute, unalloyed nonsense???

Sugar_Rush

I'm just going to throw this out there also but, I think as a matter of sound practice, any police appointed "welfare inspectors" should be female police.

That would go almost 100% a ways to alleviate the potential for, or accusations of, sexual malpractice being acted out.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368804#Comment_120368804

That's extremely sexist of you.

This is just another cr@p thread.

Sugar_Rush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368843#Comment_120368843

R u serious?

lol

Anyone.....

Is this guy serious?

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368926#Comment_120368926

Absolutely. You've led a sheltered life if you think sexual malpractice only works one way.

Sugar_Rush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368964#Comment_120368964

You think welfare inspection teams for sex workers shouldn't be comprised or predominantly comprised of women?

When the entire issue is enforcement malpractice being perpetrated by men (which is, as illustrated above, an almost potentially natural tendency)?

Count Dracula

I had a Bean Gard throw herself at me in the Listowel Arms at the festival a few years back, late 90's. She was not taking no for an answer, Dungarven native if I remember correctly. Sculling Bacardi and Coke and smoking Silk Cut. Had these sharp aggressive Deise eyes that reminded me of an American Adult movie star whose name I cannot remember, Jemma Jameson, or Jemma Power or the likes.

Very... very frisky type. Nice kisser, very direct with intent. One minute I was head nodding to a Christy Moore cover and the next I was getting a waft of Estee Lauder and a fair glimpse down her blouse and a wide faced flirt off. I would say she had me cornered and apprehended in less than five minutes... I always reckon she was a repeat offender and had form, she was a good 5-10 years older than me, probably married to some poor school teacher from South Tipp. That poor guy?

As quick as she had me in the loop it was a half hour of feigned interest interspersed with some of the most offensive sexual innuendo I have ever witnessed, she was rubbing me down, getting her 501's nice and warm and driving her heels into the soft spot of my Achilles. Terrifying stuff.

She manipulated a trip to the cigarette machine into a chase up the back stairs fire exit before bundling me into a broom cupboard on the 4rd floor. She had me trousers off in seconds and wolfed into the bride frightener like she hadn't had one in months. She started complaining about her knees so I pathetically explained that I was married with kids.... a lie btw ... but not a shight was given? She got her wits together and was downstairs demanding a double room off the receptionist ( the eve of the Kerry national ). We ended up in a single room add on with a broken TV - I actually suspect this was the managers den of inequity. She didn't let me sleep all night and was gone at the crack of dawn like nothing happened. not even a phone number. Some smart comment about her booking me for having concealed weapon without a license, and she was out the door and gone.

I was violated. At least I think I was?

Quantum Erasure

I had nearly given up on the thread until that, Bravo!

Manach

Mod Note: As the thread seems to be devolving somewhat from the tone of the Humanities forum, there will a space for any concluding posts before this thread is closed.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368759#Comment_120368759

What specific deception is the sex industry based around?

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369214#Comment_120369214

From his last (closed) thread the deception appears to be that he went for a massage but it turned out to be a brothel, or something. Apparently this has been the case with every massage parlor he has visited.

As for the topic at hand, do sex workers run an increased risk of being exploited? yes. Could Gardai be exploiting them? also yes.

But the original post was about women in general and an unfounded allegation as to the level of harassment from the gardai, which there is not evidence for the level of, but sr assumes it's the same or worse as the UK

Sugar_Rush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369213#Comment_120369213

I haven't read through the most recent posts but, the intention was to establish discussion on the humanitarian aspect of correct law enforcement procedure and regulatory policy in relation to potentially controversial practices.

Naturally there'll be the tendency for some possibly less savory comments.

Could you not clean them up as a moderator and simply allow myself to steer the conversation back on track?

PS - I've read them now. Yeah can you not just delete that foolishness and we can continue as previous.

That tone of "devolution" was introduced by basically one poster exclusively.

Sugar_Rush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369401#Comment_120369401

unfounded allegation as to the level of harassment from the gardai, which there is not evidence for the level of, but sr assumes it's the same or worse as the UK

Yeah see I didn't make those allegations.

They were made by a medium which is a part of a prostitution promotion agency.

You see the paradox?

In fact my overarching contention is that said medium is potentially alleging this information as its advertisers don't like the impunity with which they can indulge in criminality, being impacted by law enforcement;

A smeer campaign of sorts.

Potentially.

The purpose of this thread was to establish discussion and scrutinize this contention and allegation.

From media reports, it appears not entirely unfounded? But then said allegations are almost entirely anecdotal?

Sugar_Rush

Additionally, it's difficult not to notice the mud being slung at law enforcement and state organizations (again, by said harm-reduction platform) in relation to "lack of transparency".

The reality is, no body, collective or organization is more guilty of this allegation, than the ones currently alleging it.

A prostitute agency that operate according to the same principles of the trade itself, i.e. deception for profit.

By default not only to they NOT exhibit transparency, but do everything in their power to indulge in as much avoidance of it as possible.

Which one must consider, potentially detracts from the credibility of their own allegations, whether founded on legitimacy or otherwise.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120360575#Comment_120360575

I'd like to think I take an unbiased approach

Hmmmm...