Referendum on Gender Equality (THREADBANS IN OP)

Spanish Eyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120336560#Comment_120336560

People? Biological men you mean?

How the hell do women manage to carry babies and their handbags FGS.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120336576#Comment_120336576

Is this a surprise?

https://getplume.co/blog/a-guide-to-estrogen-and-your-trans-body/

”People on all types of estrogen also tend to lose their lean muscle mass. It’s also very common to lose some of your grip strength after one year of GAHT.”

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120336576#Comment_120336576

Welcome to the differences and different effects of the body’s naturally produced hormones vs synthetic hormones. Women manage to carry babies and their handbags because oestrogen, analogous to the effects of testosterone naturally produced in men.

Synthetic hormones on the other hand, are a whole different ball game entirely, because they can have unintended and undesirable side effects!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120336849#Comment_120336849

Is this your standard response when anyone points out the factual errors in your posts?

Faugheen

The obsession about trans is insane at this point.

They exist. All they want to do is exist. Leave them alone.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120337021#Comment_120337021

This, from the bloke who told us that there was no such thing as trans people seven years ago.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120332779#Comment_120332779

Which conspiraloon fed you this nonsense

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120336849#Comment_120336849

What you want to identify as is irrelevant to the point you made which is that transgenderism did not exist 7 years ago.

Seeing as LGBT has been around since the 90’s (before that LGB in the early 80’s) and the T meaning transgender— not T-Rex it’s fairly safe to say you’re full of it.

As if that dribble you replied to me with didn’t already suggest that.

I've no issue changing that to be honest.

Ten of Swords

@Phishnet do not post in this thread again

Ten of Swords

Mod - OK thread is going way off topic now.

Can we get back to discussing the gender equality referendum please

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120337622#Comment_120337622

Have you tried listening to any trans people about the support they get from the National Gender Identity Service?

Fighting Tao

unable to delete

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120337112#Comment_120337112

That poster themselves is a conspiracy loon, so I wouldn't be surprised if that mental word salad existed in their head only

JohnnyFortune

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335138#Comment_120335138

This science you speak of. If a student doctor has two patients for an exam, and the patients cannot speak to him, and has access to every medical test available. How does he determine, scientifically, which patient is trans and which is not? Neither have undergone any surgery in their lives yet.

kowloonkev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120336203#Comment_120336203

Of course justice is important for us normal plebs. I think we all want fairness at the end of the day. The question does not presuppose that justice isn't important.

Even if the government wasn't manoeuvring for this referendum in the background, ultimately they are the ones who choose which initiative to pick up and run with, and when. They are not obligated to put all initiatives of a citizens assembly into action, right?

I'm not saying I disagree with the changes. I'm questioning the motive and timing.

I'm wondering why we never get a say in really significant things like health, housing and the actual justice system. Why is there no initiatives on these disaster zones from citizens assemblies?

Spanish Eyes

Kowloon Kev - I'm wondering why we never get a say in really significant things like health, housing and the actual justice system. Why is there no initiatives on these disaster zones from citizens assemblies?

That is because the Citizens Assembly operates to discuss and debate issues that are referred to it by the Oireachtas. They cannot just decide to discuss something off their own bat. You can draw your own conclusions as to why and which topics are referred to it.

Q1. What is the Citizens’ Assembly?

A. The Citizens’ Assembly was a body formed from the citizens of Ireland to deliberate on a number of issues which were referred to it by the Houses of the Oireachtas. It broadly followed the model used for the Convention on the Constitution which ran from 2012-2014.

This model provides a platform for a cross-section of the public to hear presentations from experts and civil society groups and to engage in rational and reasoned discussion, and to then make recommendations to the State on the options available.

https://2016-2018.citizensassembly.ie/en/Resource-Area/FAQ/

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120339322#Comment_120339322

Why would someone doing actual science forego the most useful source of information they have available to them? The patient themselves. Though taking a literal interpretation of your situation, in that case the doctor would ask the patients to write down their gender.

Same student doctor has two patients. One of them has a headache and the other doesn't. The patients cannot communicate with the doctor. How does the doctor determine scientifically which patient has the headache? Spoiler alert: For most types of headache the answer is "they can't". Do you think this means that headaches don't have any scientific basis?

This is actually one of the big challenges of pediatric medicine, especially babies and pre-verbal toddlers. Not being able to get reliable verbal feedback from the patient makes diagnosing them more difficult.

Spanish Eyes

Headaches and pain can be identified by raised blood pressure readings and presentation in non verbal patients.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120339638#Comment_120339638

In some instances, yes. In others no. And a lot of things can cause elevated blood pressure. And with a patient that cannot communicate at all, if they aren't a prior patient you don't have any way of knowing what pressure would qualify as elevated for them. When I was younger my normal resting BP was 90/60. 120/80 is considered "normal". If my BP had been up there, that would've been elevated, but if I couldn't tell them that they'd just think it was normal.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120339339#Comment_120339339

At a simplistic level, you don't need a constitutional amendment to make changes in the areas you specified (health, housing, justice). You can build more or less houses, set max prices, taxes, change the planning system all through legislation. You can set minimum sentences, build more prisons, add more gardai, arm them etc. This is all outside the area of the Constitutional Assembly because they are not Constitution issues, hence we don't get a direct plebiscite vote on it.

In theory we do get to vote on these things in a general election. Albeit it's clear that the manifesto promises that we vote for tend to get dropped when the parties sit down to hammer out a coalition agreement after an election. And even then most of us aren't going to find a party to vote for which ticks all the boxes on these issues the way we want. e.g., some might like the PBP position on more money for the health service/housing, but consider them weak on crime.

Spanish Eyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120339675#Comment_120339675

I did say it "can" be an indicator.

Anyway, I don't think a chosen gender is imperative to medical treatment, and it is easy enough to find out the biological sex of a patient by looking....

The follow up issue then is, the rights of a transwoman to be treated in a female ward/setting. I wouldn't like that for any of the biological women in my life, and nor would they either. And it goes on - transwomen medics performing gynae exams and so on. The issue is not just about the rights of trans, it is also about the rights of natal sex people too.

It is a big issue for many, although we are somewhat brainwashed into thinking it is all about kindness and dignity. They have that already under the GRA, but they want more and more and more. Well that's my view now. How such a tiny proportion of the population has infiltrated societal norms is puzzling to say the least of it.

I expect a lashing now.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334495#Comment_120334495

It's not that at all.

A citizens' assembly (so-called, as it isn't a group of citizens who come together spontaneously, but a group of people organised for and chosen under the auspices of the government; I seem to remember a bit of a kerfuffle when it became public knowledge that one of them was packed with Labour party members) is told what to discuss - by the government. The government appoints a chair who directs the discussions, and AFAICT pretty much controls the situation. The chair then chooses what they will vote on, it's not clear how they decide this. (A little transparency on this point would be helpful)

In reality it's a puppet theatre of sorts, and the government is pulling all the strings - so I'd be most unsurprised if the results are not in line with what the government wants to hear. Anyway they always have the ability to ignore anything they don't want to hear and run with what they do. I think this particular CA was held back in 2018, we're now in 2023 - so why has this particular rabbit been pulled out of the hat now, five years later?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120336084#Comment_120336084

"gender equality in all its forms"

This.

And yet we have some posters wondering why some people "jump to conclusions" that it's going to be about Trans.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120336171#Comment_120336171

Nor did marriage equality.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341483#Comment_120341483

Citizen Assembly membership are NOT 'organised for and chosen under the auspices of the Government'. They are selected at random by RedC to meet a strict demographic profile (age, gender, possibly more). I don't recall any 'kerfuffle' about the membership being packed and I can't find any news reports to suggest that this happened. Is this more of your imaginary dreams being put forward as fact, like your 'majority detransitioning' claim that evaporated when questioned?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341580#Comment_120341580

So how come the Supreme Court refused to recognise same sex marriages before the referendum?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zappone_v._Revenue_Commissioners

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341483#Comment_120341483

No. Government has no say in choosing members of citizens assemblies. No idea what you are on about in relation to party members at all.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341598#Comment_120341598

Who did Red C choose the members FOR? For the government. That RedC did so randomly or otherwise is a separate matter.

Under whose auspices was the CA set up? Under the auspices of the Government.

It was reported at the time that 4 of the 66 "citizen members" were Labour party members, which would extrapolate to the Labour party having 300,000 members in the state. There may have been other unreported cases.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341644#Comment_120341644

Was that not because of ordinary statute law?