Referendum on Gender Equality (THREADBANS IN OP)

conorhal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328913#Comment_120328913

And how should the state recognise that special role and important contribution to the state women perform?

I would argue that any years spent in the pursuit of raising children outside of the wagie hamster wheel should (if one were to make a constitutional case about it) count as a contrubution toward a full contributory pension, you know, in recognition of the important job a mother performs for the state as stated in the constitution...... oh now I see why they might want shot of that article... you wouldn't want to have to pay out a full pension just because child rearing is considered real work.

Don't fall into the trap they set with 'tax individualization' etc. They want to reduce women to just another PPS number living, working and getting buried in a box. Don’t sell your soul to the globalist corporate elite.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334188#Comment_120334188

Why should the state require that it only be women that perform that role?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334103#Comment_120334103

I've done a lot of reading on the subject, and the more recent studies seem to suggest that the low rates initially reported are unsustainable. However I don't keep a database of the articles I read, so I can't give you sources offhand.

But like the word gender itself, transition is used in different ways by different people. For some it means a feeling, or wearing other-sex clothes, or identifying as the other sex; for others it means taking drugs, and for others again it means surgery.

Clearly desisting or detransitioning becomes more onerous the further you go along this continuum, which is why an increasing number of people are of the opinion that a person should have reached adulthood before being able to make irreversible choices.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334181#Comment_120334181

Right, OK, it's a focus group. A nice touchy-feely one set up by the government of the day.

Meanwhile, we pay people to be our representatives and make decisions for us, and we have a huge public sector to implement those decisions.

So why are they outsourcing their job to a focus group?

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334343#Comment_120334343

I've also done a lot of reading in the subject, but I'm not seeing anything that supports your assertion. The studies I've seen, many of which were years in length and published very recently, show a very stable 2.5 to 3 percent that go back to identifying as the gender they were assigned at birth. And almost all of those were before they turned 9. Before even puberty blockers would've entered the picture.

And importantly being supported when they socially transition even if they are one of the very few that goes back had an immensely positive impact on their mental health.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334030#Comment_120334030

It is utter nonsense to claim 'recent research suggests that the majority....' and then fail to provide details of this recent research. Makey-uppey claptrap.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334188#Comment_120334188

Sure. Like the state had been paying such good wages for the home work they consider so important. Wouldn't want to interfere with that sweet little deal.

As if the supreme gentlemen of Boards would be happy to hear that a single mother, who isn't in employment, would get full pension contributions for the years they're working in the home and claiming benefits.

El_Duderino 09

I'm glad to see the transgender debate has moved from transgender broadly to the smaller argument about children transitioning. Shows progress towards accepting trans people.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329517#Comment_120329517

Technically, you're correct that it hasn't come directly from the govt but this referendum has been flagged for some time as being a govt policy - here's an article from 2018:

Referendum on ‘sexist’ reference to women’s place in the home postponed – The Irish Times

On the vote itself, I'll likely vote yes pending publication of the wording changes

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333586#Comment_120333586

Now let's go back to the word he chose to use: enshrine - to put in a shrine, which is a sort of altar where something is paid public homage to. Usually something you leave aside in your normal daily life. The man literally said this is an exercise in virtue signally, in modern parlance. That's fairly clear isn't it?

This is drivel. To 'enshrine in law' or 'enshrine in the constitution' is a well-known expression. An expression I'm sure you know as well as anybody else.

The way you have chosen to deliberately misinterpret it is absurd.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334374#Comment_120334374

It's a form of direct democracy. Take gay marriage as an example. The citizens assembly recommended it, people voted 2:1 in favour of it when given the opportunity. But the main political parties only supported it in the week before the vote.

The main parties were afraid to endorse it even though the population was heavily in favour of it. It would have taken the Dail years and years to legislate for it, but the citizens assembly was a way to ask the people what they want and get it done without the usual politics getting in the way.

I think its a really good part of our type of democracy

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334136#Comment_120334136

Trans people have been around for ever. As a child in the 70s, when kids had no choice but to watch the news with their parents, I remember the controversy around Renee Richards.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/55885930

There's nothing new around trans people. What is new is the targeting of trans people, emerging out of Mumsnet and other SM platforms, supported by RTE who gave a voice to a comedy writer as an apparent expert on trans people. This seems to be a reaction to marriage equality and other developments, a picking of a weak target. As we're seeing in the States, this wedge issue is now being used to roll back on basic fundamental rights for gay people, such as equal marriage.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334374#Comment_120334374

So if there was no Citizens Assembly, you'd be happy to accept a ruling by politicians and civil servants that it is fairly ridiculous to refer to the place of women in the home in the Constitution?

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334495#Comment_120334495

Was just about to point this out. The key thing is surely what referendum(s) is put to the people, and I see little reason to think the wording would be much different if the government came up with it in the traditional pre-citizens assemblies way...

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329683#Comment_120329683

We don't know until we see the wording but I'd be wary of this being a trojan horse. Remove the wording from the constitution by all means, but given how the government departments seem to be in capture to various taxpayer funded lobby groups I think they will push for whatever they can get and this referendum while it's nominally about removing the wording will become a way of pushing more agendas. Much the same way that the Gender Recognition Act was put through at the same time of the marriage equality legislation post referendum which provided a veil of protection where marriage equality was well supported by the public but gender recognition not to the same extent.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334569#Comment_120334569

This is retrospective conspiracy theory nonsense about the timing of the GRA. The GRA stood on its own, and had nothing to do with marriage equality. There was no fuss or drama, because most sensible people realised that letting trans people choose their own future is normal and sensible. The recent backlash has been generated by social media and traditional media.

conorhal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334204#Comment_120334204

A few hundred thousand years of evolutionary biology that makes women uniquely suited to the role?

Oh and spare the strawmen, the state does not 'require that only women perform that role', they mere recognise the above and the fact that childcare is largely performed by women, a fact worthy of recogntion.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334625#Comment_120334625

Wow. So many words, and you managed to be wrong with them all. Impressive.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334625#Comment_120334625

Unfortunately for you, nature does lie. Try talking to transgender people, intersex people, people with varying levels of testosterone and oestrogen.

There's a whole world out there that doesn't fit into your narrow black/white view. It's nothing to fear. Let other people get on with their lives, with just a little bit of human respect.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334763#Comment_120334763

The difference would be that there isn't hundreds, even thousands of years of examples of people who do actually identify as a cat. There is hundreds of years of history of trans people that you're choosing to ignore, presumably just so you can keep having a go at a very vulnerable group.

Spanish Eyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334691#Comment_120334691

If only TRAs would listen to you and just get on with their lives like the rest of us try to do. Trans can obtain a gender recognition certificate as it is under the GRA. But no, they want more and more and more.

What about trans women in women's sport? Why is that, have they failed in their male sex based categories and need to prove themselves as the best again, or have they an agenda of erasing women, because let's face it men are stronger, bigger, and all that, no way could a woman ever compete with them on any level in sport. Hence many sporting bodies refusing to allow transwomen to participate at all. Testosterone you see.

Why do TRA's insist on accessing women's spaces and prisons etc.?

A criminal/murderer/sex offender etc. identifying as a woman under a GRC can skew the statistics for male violence. We saw what happened in Scotland recently. All trans are trans until they are not.

What is the definition of "gender" for the purposes of our laws?

Many places and entities have been captured with terms like "birthing persons", the obliteration of the word "woman" in gynaecological information from Health providers and so on. It goes on and on, and many are unaware of the insidious creep of it all.

I'm not asking you to answer BTW, I'm just quietly making a few points that often escape the "be kind and no debate" side of the matter.

FunLover18

As I said before people will try and make this referendum about something else. I will be avoiding interacting with this discourse as it only gives it credence and air which it does not deserve.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334721#Comment_120334721

I'm shocked. You actually managed to get something right on this one. The Emperor is in fact not wearing clothes in that story. Well done! The rest of the post isn't true, but that's hardly surprising given your track record.

daheff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328913#Comment_120328913

THIS. THIS Poster is hitting the nail on the head. "important role and unpaid"

Under the current laws revenue recognise the time spent by women taking time out of work to look after family. They allow for PRSI stamps to be accumulated during this time, which then counts towards social welfare benefits & pensions.

My fear would be that if the constitution changes removing this specifics then revenue could (not necessarily will) remove these benefits.

Personally I don't think there is any pressing need to amend this part of the constitution. I am open to people advising genuine reasons why it should be amended though.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335055#Comment_120335055

A person's ability to do that shouldn't be based on their gender.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335101#Comment_120335101

As I've already said, absolutely nothing you posted is true. Biology is a lot more complicated than you seen to think. You should probably learn a bit about the science of it before you start posting about it publicly.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335150#Comment_120335150

Can you provide a source for your lobbying by the banks claim please?

El_Duderino 09

Is this ot then? Is the debate going to be about transgender?

Are the anti referendum side happy that the referendum passes and they get to have a big chat about trans rights?

I ask because the last 2 big issues that were discussed at a national level like this (gay marriage and abortion) ended up with big majorities listening to the discussion and deciding they were fine with it.

It would be handy if the anti-trans people forced a national discussion and people came to realise the transgenders aren't as scarry as they're made out to be.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334835#Comment_120334835

The difference, yet again, is that hundreds of thousands people don't identify as cats. It's a nonsense scenario that might have sounded clever when your mate said it in the pub, but it doesn't stand up.

If hundreds of thousands of people were identifying as cats, I guess we'd be pretty stupid to ignore it, but it doesn't happen.

Can we get back to an adult discussion please?

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335246#Comment_120335246

just in case they don't get round to answering