Referendum on Gender Equality (THREADBANS IN OP)

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886090#Comment_121886090

No, I don't. I know that there is a widespread belief in that lie though.

thegame983

Not wanting taxpayer's money being used to promote government propaganda is akin to 'fascist Germany.'

Yes voters really have lost their minds.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886117#Comment_121886117

Did he say NGOs shouldn't be funded if they vote no?

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885900#Comment_121885900

I'm not arguing with the fact that the services provided by some NGOs aren't critical, but why not make those services part of the state's apparatus? That way the electorate can decide how these critical services are delivered through the democratic process. It also means that superfluous NGOs engaging in identity politics will no longer be needed. I don't want unelected appointees in NGOs dictating policy direction to government is all. Is that too much to ask?

I wouldn't say I'm a Socialist, perhaps social democratic on certain topics, especially with respect to vulnerable members of society. I hold a fairly broad spectrum of political views. Some views perhaps not so social democratic. Hence I identify broadly as politically centrist.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886176#Comment_121886176

Bit of a mistep to bring in Nazi Germany into the debate.

dmakc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886176#Comment_121886176

If I was an NGO whose existence is dependent on government funding, and said government threatens (via media!) that I'll have to explain myself to them should I vote no, it doesn't take a genius to figure out the stakes. That's politics for you.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886148#Comment_121886148

Denying funding to organisations that don't fall in line with the government want is exactly what one would see in a facist regime. Didn't realise no voters were so against freedom of speech and expression.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884594#Comment_121884594

I agree.

However some NGOs exist only to reoresent politically so that is an issue of as itself.

Certainly the funding should be as it was before, same across the board, and not conditional on supporting the government of the day.

ROG made a significant threat during this campaign about groups being defunded if they did not support the campaign and he needs to be made answerable for it... Political coercion and manipulation.

Likewise groups within some of the organisations called out the issues that many in the public found wrong about the proposed amendments ( I alluded to this on the March 8th thread a few weeks ago).

They were ignored and overruled.

The patronising way in which leadership of these organisations now talk of ' confusion within the electorate' about these very same issues is now causing more anger and frustration..

These organisations are going to need restructuring from the top for sure.

But to get rid of or stop funding to all NGOs who provide essential services would not only be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, it would be a big mistake.

We have seen how successive governments have been unable to provide basic essential services like health, housing and mental health in this country so to effectively cut off the bulk of services supplied by NGOs without anything in place to replace them would be crazy.

Never mind to expect that decades of expertise in the area could remotely be transferred to government bodies or civil servants, just like that, without everything collapsing in a heap, is frankly mind boggling!

Not in our lifetimes I think, if ever.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886232#Comment_121886232

So he didn't. Glad we cleared that up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886270#Comment_121886270

"Full retard" - very classy.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885958#Comment_121885958

absolute rubbish. So anyone can form a pressure and group and will duly receive government funding? Really?

they obviously have to meet certain criteria. Some like the Simon Community are doing good practical work. Others are effectively lobbyists.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886238#Comment_121886238

Tarring all no voters with the same brush? Making claims against a particular no voter that may or may not be based in reality.

The problem with the NGO's and Charities in general is there there are FAR too many of them. How many "housing related" charities/NGO's are there for example? While some of them may be providing valuable service the multiples of them in existence are by their very nature very very innefficient and have ultimately allowed the government and state to "farm out" some core responsibilities and find other groups to blame while ensuring multiple multiple people get paid in multiple organisations for doing the same types of work with sometimes very little oversight despite massive budgets. I am speaking on housing here but you can extrapolate that right across society.

As for the specific NGO most in question here (although there are others) - this has shone a light on what they do and what they stand for - a lot of people may not have been aware of their existence but now they are and are rightfully questioning what their remit is and who they represent.

There are other NGO's that have serious questions to answer when their views are so distant from what of the people they claim to represent.

smallbeef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886281#Comment_121886281

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/01/01/progressive-organisations-must-explain-any-decision-not-to-support-referendum-says-minister/

Yep you said it. Facist.

And don't try to say that was not a threat.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885958#Comment_121885958

O'Gormless more or less told NGO's they have to have a very good reason as to why they are voting no or else no funding.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886468#Comment_121886468

No, it wasn’t about funding, it was about portraying the proposed amendments as socially progressive, and that’s why he made the remark that any organisation that sees itself as progressive and as wanting to advance progressive change” would have to explain why they do not support the plans:

Some campaign groups have given a lukewarm response to the proposed changes. During an interview with The Irish Times, Mr O’Gorman said “any organisation that sees itself as progressive and as wanting to advance progressive change” would have to explain why they do not support the plans.

“Nobody loses from either of these changes. And significant number of people I think have the opportunity to gain from them,” he said.

It was nothing more than a piss-poor attempt at virtue signalling, like any organisation which didn’t support the amendment wasn’t progressive. Hell it worked to bring the NWCI back into line 😂

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886309#Comment_121886309

I never said that. Anyone can form a group and apply for government funding like anyone else can. Whether they get the government funding should never be dependent on them agreeing with the position of the government or the results of an election. Imagine saying any disability organisations that advocated for a Yes should be stripped of government funding, it's ludricious.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886353#Comment_121886353

I don't think anyone has claimed said the charity or NGO sector isn't problem free. Again, it is up to the members of of any group to decide their remit and that's the way it always should be.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886371#Comment_121886371

Again, no where in it did he say he would remove their funding. Thanks for posting the link clearing that up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886468#Comment_121886468

No he didn't. What he said is in the above link and he mentioned nothing about denying funding.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886258#Comment_121886258

That's bullshit. Nobody was threatened with defunding.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886522#Comment_121886522

Isn't it an awful means of advocating for a yes vote? Saying it's progressive so you should vote for it, rather than pointing to positives that will accrue from that yes vote.

O'Gorman has been a disaster in his current role, it really hasn't worked at all. The loss of this referendum is incredible, it would have been so easy to make positive changes to the Constitution, if reasonable wording was introduced.

With members of the Government now saying they voted against the proposition, and others not voting at all, it really looks very bad for the Government.

Generally referendums aren't much of an indication of where the public are regarding elections, but I think these results are significant. I think it shows the public have almost no faith in their leaders, and when people are voting against the way they canvas, it's unreasonable to think anyone should trust them in the future.

Twenty years ago I think the idea of a disconnect between the public and the political parties would have been fanciful, there was really strong engagement between ordinary people and FG and in particular FF. Now there are very few people involved in politics at a local level, the Greens are in government and are on their own planet. Varadkar is the epitome of privilege and doesn't connect with rural Ireland or older people. FF still aren't trusted after providing the worst Government since independence. A huge percentage still don't forgive SF for the IRA campaign that many of us lived through.

I think FF and FG really need to change the leaders, but it's probably too close to the election now.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886522#Comment_121886522

Looks like a veiled threat to me. And it been reported as such, with Rodericks quotes. Roderick has really shown himself up in the last year.

https://extra.ie/2024/01/07/news/roderic-ogorman-home-vote

Furze99

Anyone else here the SF rep, Quinlivan I think it was, on the Late Debate last night.

He was asked if SF would uphold it's promise to run the referendums again if they were defeated. And backtracked so quickly on this commitment that he was tripping over himself!

It seems that the Diktat has come from Belfast - do not dare touch these issues with a bargepole anymore. Run as fast as you can, not popular!!

Shoog

The reason why this current government is so despised is because they have failed to address the issue of housing which impacts every family in the country. They allowed this crisis to develop on their watch and due to their slavish adherence to market solutions and the interests of the landlord class , they did nothing to address the developing crisis.

They will be wiped out for this reason alone. All the woke bullshit been peddled by a minority on the right will have virtually zero impact on the outcome. Any party which puts forward a believable solution to housing will sweep the board - and if no one comes forward the country will be plunged into 5 years of absolute chaos pandering to fringe grouping in order to try to hold together another unstable coalition.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887253#Comment_121887253

I don't really think there is a believable solution, because the construction sector is at full tilt already.

A certain amount can be done to entice more people into trades and there could be more done to attract EU tradesmen, but even if there are some successes with that, there's still almost certainly going to be a shortage of housing for the lifetime of the next Government. And that'd be the case even if net immigration dropped to zero this year.

Really it's a crisis that has been caused by immigration, most of it quite legal. I can't see any reasons for optimism that it can be solved in the short term, unless there is another serious recession, which would of course be unwelcome.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887472#Comment_121887472

It's not predominantly immigration and a bold solution such as system built housing in factories would go a long way to rapidly increasing stock with high quality housing wherever it is needed.

It maybe optimistic to think that this can be solved in a single term, but a rapid deployment of housing factories and planning reforms would go a very long way to addressing the developer bottleneck.

Ten of Swords

@Spanish Eyes threadbanned

@Silentcorner threadbanned

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121881257#Comment_121881257

She is a dangerous fool? How exactly

She said she wanted to vote No to one part of the referendum. The durable one. She did feck all campaigning.

She is Martins pet. Has succeed in being elected once in 2016 the dail. She would have been a minister in 2020 but lost her seat.

Martin got her into the seanad. Got her made leader there. With a driver.

He got her added to the Euro constituency out west despite her polling third. There was only meant to be one candidate.

She has achieved something by getting a few pages of coverage across several newspapers.

Women do vote for women given a reasonable candidate and now she has name recognition but I still see her failing.

Barry cowen should take the seat euro out there despite both cowen brothers being idiots.

It seems despite chronic unemployment in offaly they always elected Cowens.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886238#Comment_121886238

There is a lot of rubbish about fascism in this thread. Denying funding to those you don't agree with is authoritarian and obnoxious. It can come from the extreme left, the extreme right ("fascist, if you will) or self-styled liberals who are basically intolerant (extreme wokies).

References to Nazi Germany are totally ridiculous.

Shoog

Denying funding based on whether you agree with a NGOs position is the very definition of fascism.

If an NGO is acting within the law and providing a useful service they should be entitled to apply for funding. Purely politically based NGO think tanks pushing radical policy initiated are an entirely different matter.

whatisayis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887253#Comment_121887253

I have no idea who I will vote for in the next election. There is no trust in this government or the main opposition parties who differ little in mindset it seems. The foolish TD's who are now coming out and saying they actually voted NO NO hopefully will not get a single vote. They were quite happy to let the electorate be misled by their party leaders so do they not see how dishonest that makes them appear?

Housing is definitely a reason why the government is so disliked but lack of adequate health care is an equal if not more of an issue. There is also very much a perception that government policy is south Dublin led and completely ignores the concerns of those outside the bubble.

The priorities in government spending reflect the mind set. For example we are spending a million Euros a day on (barely used and definitely not vital infrastructure) projects such as cycle paths and walkways while public transport outside the capital is worse than it was in the 1960's.

We have ever growing homeless numbers including hundreds living in tents in the centre of the city.

We have the largest numbers ever recorded of people on trolleys in our hospitals.

We have some of the highest electricity and home heating bills in the world etc. etc. etc.....

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885530#Comment_121885530

Well maybe the members should fully fund it then

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121892735#Comment_121892735

Maybe. I don't know if there's much appetite to have all homeless, disability, mental health organisations cut off from public funding though. The same for sports organisations too.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121893121#Comment_121893121

What's your understanding of members and membership?