Referendum on Gender Equality (THREADBANS IN OP)

Celmullet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120362718#Comment_120362718

I'm not sure if you read my post before quoting it, but I will reiterate.

I don't think that our society will change to a drastic degree, but the constitution is a very important document, and militantism (of any kind) can rise and consume a society. We might like to think that the forward trajectory we are on will remain on ad infinitum, but the constitution will (hopefully) outlive all of us discussing it here. My vote is to amend or preferably remove this line in the constitution is for any possible future.

Most in the UK in the late 90s would not have predicted Brexit and the backlash that we are only seeing now from it, those in Iran in the early 1960s would not have predicted the revolution that undermined their progressive society. The course of history is littered with these examples, as the future will possibly be as well.

Once again, my decision on the matter has little to do with where we are now, but any possible unpredictable future our country might have.

(I realise now that using the word misogyny is a trigger for some people, and with that will peace out of this thread)

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120362733#Comment_120362733

You wouldn’t think of waiting until you know what you’re actually voting on, no?

God be the days when the ma would be at home in her pinny waiting for the da to come home from the pub on a Friday with a few bob left in his pocket so she could get the messages in for the next week to feed the childers.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120362672#Comment_120362672

Ah. You could take the solopsistic approach or a social constructive approach if you want. But im just talking about the normal reality thst we all inhabit. The constitution says that no mother should need to work outside the home out of economic necessity. Is that the case in your versionnof reality? No mothers need to work outside the home to make ends meet?

In my reality (and i suspect your reality too), lots of mothers need to work outside the home to earn money. The constitution should reflect that reality.

Maybe you want to propose a set of social and economic policies that would make it so no mother needs to work outside the home for economic reasons. It would be pretty radical.

El_Duderino 09

Apart from anything else, I'm surprised the big brave mens rights activist of boards aren't happy about this. Giving women a special acknowledgement in the home means that a man doesn't get the same acknowledgement if he decides to be a stay at home father.

What about things like shared parental leave? In the UK for example, parents can split their 52 weeks parental leave any way they want to suit themselves (apart from the first 2 weeks which the mother has to take to recover from giving birth). Men and women having equal status would surely strengthen the case for equal shared parental leave and equal treatment in child custody cases. Funny the mens rights types haven't seen any of that instead of knee-jerk negative reaction to the idea of the referendum.

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120363376#Comment_120363376

Where's the fun in that. 😂

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364230#Comment_120364230

If we’re to put it in those terms, then a referendum asking people to vote on the issues involved is permitting the solipsistic approach, because people will vote in accordance with their own ideals, or their own beliefs, or their own version of reality, as it is, as opposed to offering any consideration whatsoever to a social constructive approach to the issues involved. That is, if I’m understanding you correctly, the reality we all inhabit, which is why I asked the question - whose reality are you basing your opinion on? Yours, or have you considered anyone else whose reality doesn’t jive with yours?

That IS the case in my version of reality, because as you point out, it’s already what’s contained in the Constitution, which was always portrayed as a living document, a guide if you like, for the way Irish society should be structured and governed and so on. That’s why the original intent in including the provision was in recognition of women working in the home and support for the idea that mothers should not be forced by economic necessity to engage in labour outside the home to the neglect of their duties within the home, precisely because their contribution to Irish society, by their life within the home, was recognised as being of greater importance to the achievement of the common good. It was recognised that without their contribution, the common good could not be achieved. The Government of the time were already employing the social constructive approach.

That successive Governments have failed miserably in their responsibility to uphold that part of the Constitution which recognises the contribution of women working in the home to Irish society, and doesn’t provide sufficient support to mothers, which necessitates them being forced to engage in labour outside of the home, is a failure to address the reality of the thousands of mothers who are forced by economic necessity to engage in labour outside the home.

I do want a set of policies which recognises, reinforces and reflects the needs of mothers who are struggling, and forced by economic necessity to engage in labour outside of the home, which many mothers whom I’ve spoken with feel strongly that it forces them into making that decision between family and labour outside of the home in order to provide for their children’s needs. I don’t think there’s anything radical in suggesting that mothers need to be better supported by the State, but there’s no proposals so far that I’m aware of which come close to matching that reality, and a referendum isn’t required to do it either.

The ideas being proposed to be put to a referendum so far as I’m aware anyway, move even further away from recognition of that reality, making the idea of mothers being able to choose to work in the home and not have to concern themselves with engagement in labour outside of the home to the neglect of their duties within the home, an even more remote possibility, in furtherance of this purported notion of ‘gender equality’, an idea which is about as far removed from reality as it gets.

It IS a social constructive approach, to be fair to the idea, and it is reflected to some extent in the fact that 98% of those people working in the home are women, and the majority of those women are not forced by economic necessity to engage in labour outside of the home because they are married and provided for by their husbands… BUT, and here’s the kicker, the proposals so far do nothing to address the reality of unmarried mothers who are forced by economic necessity to engage in labour outside of the home to the neglect of their duties within the home, in order to provide for their children. The proposals only add more pressure to an increased societal burden already experienced by unmarried mothers that they SHOULD be engaged in labour outside the home in order to provide for their children, while placing no such equal burden on men, who are championed in certain quarters if they make the decision to work in the home… all 2% of them 😒

I dunno man, even in terms of any purported notion of gender equality and a reflection of Irish society, the proposals are a swing and a miss, apart from the proposed changes to recognise that the Family, as currently recognised by the Constitution through the institution of Marriage, is something of a stumbling block for non-traditional families who are not recognised in Irish law as constituting a Family and therefore are not entitled to equal protection in Irish law as traditional families based upon the original interpretation of marriage as it was at the time when the Constitution was approved and adopted by the Irish people.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364261#Comment_120364261

Apart from anything else, I'm surprised the big brave mens rights activist of boards aren't happy about this.

Oh come on now, they haven’t said anything about it because they haven’t found a way yet to portray men as victims 😒 Their only interest is in circumstances where they can engineer the perception that men are the REAL victims, such as in circumstances you point out like Family Law and so on, in which all parties are treated as being of equal status regardless of their gender and decisions are based upon determining what is in children’s best interests, as opposed to those of their parents.

The proposals for the referendum aren’t related to parental leave in employment or any of that kind of stuff either, that can already be achieved through legislation, and the Government have already gone some way towards that in recent months with the introduction of the Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill -

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2022/92/

JohnnyFortune

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364261#Comment_120364261

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120381882#Comment_120381882

Define a man........................

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382287#Comment_120382287

Come again? 🤨

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382382#Comment_120382382

It's 2023, you can't say "man" or "woman" anymore without offending the wokeists

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382996#Comment_120382996

you can however still say man or woman if you aren't bothered about offending the "wokeists" which i think most ultimately aren't to be fair and nor should they.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120363125#Comment_120363125

There were differences between civil partnership and marriage, but they were minimal.

The Civil Partnership Act was for Same-sex couples only - it was pretty much a cut&paste job, based on the then-current Marriage Act. Heterosexual couples weren't covered by it, though:

A statutory civil partnership registration scheme for same-sex couples was introduced in January 2011 under the Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act 2010. The Act sets out the rights and obligations that civil partners have towards each other. These are broadly the same as the rights and obligations of married couples towards each other.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382996#Comment_120382996

Yourself and @JohnnyFortune might be offended by the words man and woman. But you're the only ones who mentioned it so I think we can dismiss you as wokeists.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120639022#Comment_120639022

I'm not offended by it, but I get attacked as a terf when I use Men or Women.

SouthWesterly

The best conversation I had on all this regarding definitions was that a man or woman is one physically, genetically and emotionally. There are then other people who have different personalities.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120639105#Comment_120639105

Poor you. Must be tough to be discriminated against like that. Can't say I've ever been attacked for using the terms men or women.

Isn't it funny that the ones who give out about the wokeists are the ones who brought up an issue with the terms men amd women in this discussion, and not the actual wokeists?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120639321#Comment_120639321

Sorry that my life experience means Im clearly a wokeist. Dont be such a terf.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120639429#Comment_120639429

No need to apologise. I'm always interested to see the people who bring up terms like wokeists and terfs. They're not the people you'd expect.

MrMusician18

Looks like this ridiculous referendum isn't going ahead this year.

Just goes to show how hard it is to agree a wording that our political system and NGOs agree on, and more importantly doesn't actually put any obligation on the state.

AMKC

Or maybe it will. As long as the wording in it fir all genders is right that is all that matters. I was happy to see they actually mentioned that this morning on The Week in Politics.

gormdubhgorm

Nowhere in the constitution does it state that woman's place is in the home -

ARTICLE 41

1   1° The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

2° The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.

(The above praises the family unit and protects the rights of the family (Still relevant today when there are so many broken homes etc and plenty who are not fortunate enough to have that stable family background at a person's most formative years)

2   1° In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2° The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

(The above is only interpreted by many that 'a woman's place is the home'. To me it praises the work a mother does at home for the benefit of society. And in the second part about 'economic necessity'. I am sure many women with a family would like not have to work and have their children left in creches and so on. Plenty of women feel guilty doing this. No where in the above does it say that woman should NOT work outside the home, it merely states that ideally a woman should not HAVE work outside the home

--

It annoys me the way the media pick up a phrase and run with it. In the marriage referendum, they along with the masses (including boards) called it the equality referendum.

Any referendum on Article 42.2.1 has little to do with equality, as it does not effect anyones equality. It is more ideological than anything else. And will make women who chose to stay at home rather than work feel less valued and inadequate in my opinion which is very unfair. Rearing of children is even more important than any work, outside the home in opinion. As it basically it moulds our future society.

People can already receive recognition outside the work place but after this referendum likely passes, there will be nowhere in the Irish constitution which recognises the importance of the work that a mother does at home rearing children etc. The only change I would probably make to the above is change the word 'MOTHER' to 'PRIMARY CAREGIVER IN THE HOME' as these days it is not necessarily the woman who predominately stays at home and rears the kids.

Hotblack Desiato

It annoys me the way the media pick up a phrase and run with it. In the marriage referendum, they along with the masses (including boards) called it the equality referendum.

The referendum was about allowing people equal right to marry regardless of their gender, so it was perfectly correct to call it the marriage equality referendum.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120353831#Comment_120353831

We need to get rid of all the god crap in the constitution as well.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121154924#Comment_121154924

Yes.

Hamsterchops

They were talking about this article 41.2 on Newstalk this morning. Time to ditch the wording from the Develera-era for sure, but with a hint of caution that any change (replacing woman with carer) might open the door to something else?

Some contentious legal form of wording that is nearly as bad as the original wording. Not sure what the inference is.

Loafing Oaf

Referendum(s) finally going ahead on March 8th, 2024, International Women’s Day.

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/12/05/referendums-on-women-in-the-home-and-the-concept-of-the-family-to-be-held-next-march/#:~:text=Votes%20on%20plans%20to%20remove,%2C%202024%2C%20International%20Women's%20Day.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342604#Comment_120342604

The constitution does not currently say that a woman’s place is in the home though.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121461678#Comment_121461678

Good news. The nonsense about women's place being in the home ought to have been erased a long time ago.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462563#Comment_121462563

It was never in the constitution.