Referendum on Gender Equality (THREADBANS IN OP)

kowloonkev

Just some questions about this for some of those members more informed on the constitution.

Is a referendum on this necessary or can the constitution be changed without a referendum?

Is this just another in a long line of social justice referendums (where the government can't lose) to distract us from the important issues of the day?

What does this gender equality referendum mean in practical terms?

Does it work both ways - as in, if it is to ensure equal rights for women, does it also mean equal responsibility, and that there is no favouritism in the family court between fathers and mothers?

**Threadbans**

KevMayo88

Spanish Eves

Silentcorder

Hamsterchops

FoxForce5

Interesting they want to pepper the constitution with the word 'gender' . In fact is gender even mentioned in it at the moment? I also think there is some dangerous in removing the word mother from the constitution.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058287346/referendum-on-gender-equality

Is a referendum on this necessary or can the constitution be changed without a referendum?

Yes, a referendum is required to change the constitution

Is this just another in a long line of social justice referendums (where the government can't lose) to distract us from the important issues of the day?

Depends on your perspective and your phrasing gives no illusion as to yours. Most would agree (and I'm guessing this will bear out in the result) that its time to update.

If you believe a womans place is in the home, then the constitution is grand, otherwise, no, it needs to be updated

The Government's intention to hold this referendum follows recommendations made by the Citizen's Assembly on Gender Equality two years ago.

The recommended amendments to Articles 40 and 41 of the Constitution included the "women in the home" reference - be deleted and replaced.

It was also recommended that the Constitution should refer explicitly to gender equality and non-discrimination.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0308/1360897-referendum/

What does this gender equality referendum mean in practical terms?

Does it work both ways - as in, if it is to ensure equal rights for women, does it also mean equal responsibility, and that there is no favouritism in the family court between fathers and mothers?

The referendum is to modify the constitution, nothing more. Other legislation may come as a result of the change and this may be published beforehand to give voters an informed choice if the referendum will directly impact current legislation e.g. this happened in the lead up to the abortion referendum

Just to note, our referendums and citizen assemblies are one of the best things about Ireland's systems. Our constitution is a living document, always undergoing change to reflect society and keep it relevant. This is a good thing

Peregrinus

Is a referendum on this necessary or can the constitution be changed without a referendum?

The constitution can only be changed by referendum.

Is this just another in a long line of social justice referendums (where the government can't lose) to distract us from the important issues of the day?

The question presupposes that justice is not an important issue. I don't think you'll get many takers for that position. And the notion that the whole thing is confected by the Government as a distraction from something else is undermined by the fact that this isn't ultimately a Government initiative - it's a recommendation of the citizen's assembly to which the Government is responding.

What does this gender equality referendum mean in practical terms?

Too soon to say with any confidence — we haven't seen the wording of the proposed amendment to the Constitution. An Oireachtas committee has suggested some draft wording, but we don't know yet if the Government will accept any of those recommendations.

What we do know, at least, is that the Citizen's Assembly recommended deletion of the existing wording in Art 42.2 that referred to the importance of a woman's "life within the home" and its replacement with wording "that is not gender specific and obliges the State to take reasonable measures to support care within the home and wider community". So maybe expect something like that?

Does it work both ways - as in, if it is to ensure equal rights for women, does it also mean equal responsibility, and that there is no favouritism in the family court between fathers and mothers?

See above — we're going to have to wait and see. But the constitutional provisions that are most relevant to the issue you raise are not the provisions about equal status, but the provisions about marriage and the family.

Luxembourgo

So it will make little practical difference?

StevenToast

What a waste of time and money.

FoxForce5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328347#Comment_120328347

It will enshrine the word gender, removing the word mother. That, like the same sex marriage referendum will have monumental changes for us. Every change to our constitution has a consequence.

CPTM

I have to say, I see nothing wrong with this current text: "All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law".

Maybe if it referred specifically to "men and women" I could at least begin to see where they're coming from. But bringing any sort of specifics into it brings no added value.

It'll be an interesting referendum in a way. I'm curious to see how many people feel as strongly in private about these transgender issues as they do in public. I've seen a lot of masks slip over the past few years. It could be a way for people to tell the government that enough is enough with this.

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328378#Comment_120328378

I assume by “monumental change for us” you are not heterosexual, and I applaud the change to permit everyone have the same right to marriage even though I am heterosexual and it hasn’t changed one thing, yet alone anything monumental.

I can’t see what the fear some posters have about the word mother. Why are ye so scared of a father having equal rights under the constitution?

If the wording in the constitution needs to be updated in relation to gender equality then yes we need a referendum.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328347#Comment_120328347

if there are changes to the definition of the family it could make significant difference in law in how families are treated; e.g. unmarried couples could have significantly more recognition in areas around: death, taxes, children

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328389#Comment_120328389

I dont know what any of that has to do with the proposed referendum

sydthebeat

The answer to this is extremely obvious and simple. You just change the reference from "woman" to "person" in the constitution, so that the persons role in the home is recognized as being beneficial to the state, and that no person shall be obliged by economic necessary to take up labor which would result in the neglect of home duties (as currently exists anyway)

Done and dusted

osarusan

From https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-41087869.html

The Citizens' Assembly recommended that Article 40.1 of the Constitution should be amended to refer explicitly to gender equality and non-discrimination.

The group also found that the Constitution should be changed to protect all family life and should not be limited to the marital family.

'Women in the home'

It recommends that Article 41.2, which refers to women in the home, should be deleted and replaced with language that is not gender-specific and obliges the State to take reasonable measures to support care within the home and wider community.

In 40.1, I expect it refers to lines like 'No citizen shall be deprived of his personal liberty save in accordance with law' and '...and after giving the person in whose custody he is detained an opportunity' being reworded with 'their' and 'they are' and so on.

In Article 41.2, theese are the likely sections to be examined:

2     1° In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2° The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

3     1° The State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to protect it against attack.

I don't see any issue with the idea that those 3 points should be deleted/edited in 2023, but of course it depends on what the new wording (if any) is.

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328461#Comment_120328461

It would be good to have clarification on what some of those consequences would be, as of now its pretty blind. Perhaps fairer treatment of men in divorce, which would be welcome as someone with a family member getting taken to the cleaners at the moment.

Though I guess that's why we have it, just seems a waste of money to be.

They could do all the above without a referendum.

Galwayguy35

So how much is this sop to the leftie wokies going to cost I wonder.

nonsheep7

'Women in the spa' more like it...

archermoo

Here is some good insight into the issue.

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2023/0308/1201586-ireland-women-in-the-home-constitution-clause-1937-referendum/

Cookie_Monster

"endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home."

The govt and state are already completly ignoring this provision, its next to impossible to support a home and family on a signle income these days, in changing this to 'person' or otherwise is the state actually going to do anything about the costs of living to the extent that this provision can be actioned to actually allow one parent or the other to not have to be out of the home working to the detriment of their duties in the home?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328542#Comment_120328542

Do you think the article should stay the way it is?

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328332#Comment_120328332

The wording of the amendment has not been proposed yet.

francois

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328542#Comment_120328542

Thw woke strawman tediously makes another appearance on Boards

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328598#Comment_120328598

There's a difference between "endeavor to ensure" and "prevent"

Cookie_Monster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328616#Comment_120328616

given how vague and fluffly that is then, why not simply get rid of the entire provision rahter than attempt to amend it?

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328602#Comment_120328602

Well in my own opinion with a 200 billion national debt I think there are more urgent issues to spend money on rather than worrying about changing a few words in the constitution.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328638#Comment_120328638

Well done on your whataboutery, now would you like to answer the question you were asked, and which is the topic of this thread that you chose to post in?

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328662#Comment_120328662

I gave my reason and you don't get to tell me where I can or can't post.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328667#Comment_120328667

well, you didnt answer the question, so ill take it from your reluctance to answer that you are afraid to provide one. That means you have no credibility at all here and your posts are to be considered as such.

The Government has already got this wrong with the messaging on Gender Equality :(

Gender Equity seems to be one sided.

‘ In announcing the planned referendum on gender equality and a timeframe, the Government has said it will establish an inter-departmental group this month to agree on proposals.

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said: "For too long, women and girls have carried a disproportionate share of caring responsibilities, been discriminated against at home and in the workplace, objectified or lived in fear of domestic or gender-based violence.

"I am pleased to announce that the Government plans to hold a Referendum this November to amend our Constitution to enshrine gender equality and to remove the outmoded reference to 'women in the home', in line with the recommendations of the Citizens Assembly on Gender Equality."

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328680#Comment_120328680

Oh no, I'm gutted to learn they don't meet with your approval.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328623#Comment_120328623

the constitution is not supposed to be situation specific. its supposed to be a bedrock to describe fundamental rights, and a basis for government. it is not a consolidated list of all the laws of the land.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328691#Comment_120328691

i only engage here with people who are willing to discuss the topic, you have shown that you are too afraid to voice your opinion on this topic, therefore please do not engage with me again here.

StreetLight

Music to the ears of the Burkes. Stock up on the popcorn.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328698#Comment_120328698

I'm not afraid at all, I'm quite happy to leave it the way it is and FYI it was you that engaged with me in the first place.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328717#Comment_120328717

but you are afraid... otherwise why cant you answer the question.

the answer to the question of "do you think it should change" is either "yes i do" or "no i dont"

you havent provided either answer, in a thread on the specific topic, therefore you have shown to be afraid to, and you have zero credibility.

we can all see where you now stand, so yes, im quite happy to leave it there. thanks.

I really don’t get this gender equality thing.

Do they hope that more men will become nurses & more women will go laying blocks or something?

A pile of manure is what this referendum is.

id say there’s very few people who didn’t get x y & z because they were a man or a woman

In announcing the planned referendum on gender equality and a timeframe, the Government has said it will establish an inter-departmental group this month to agree on proposals.

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said: "For too long, women and girls have carried a disproportionate share of caring responsibilities, been discriminated against at home and in the workplace, objectified or lived in fear of domestic or gender-based violence.

"I am pleased to announce that the Government plans to hold a Referendum this November to amend our Constitution to enshrine gender equality and to remove the outmoded reference to 'women in the home', in line with the recommendations of the Citizens Assembly on Gender Equality."

The goal of the referendum on Gender Equality seems to be one sided based on the Government.

Unless Ireland plans true gender equality then it’s a no from me.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328735#Comment_120328735

What part of "I'm quite happy to leave it as it is" were you finding it hard to understand?

But I'll make it easy for you, no I don't.

sydthebeat

...

howiya

I'll be voting yes before anyone comments to say I'm afraid of anything like they did with the last poster who brought up money. I would question the wisdom of holding a separate referendum in November from a cost point of view instead of holding it in tandem with the 2024 local elections.

redunited

I see no reason for this referendum.

Are women really tied to the kitchen that they can't get out to work because of some wording in the constitution?

In my opinion, this is more about normalising all the non-binary genders that are now claimed to exist and removing the traditional male and female roles from Irish society.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328765#Comment_120328765

OK Last Word Larry....hopefully your engagement is out of your system now and the thread can move forward.

My opinion is that the constitution requires no change in the area suggested. The womans place in the home is not a designation, but a protection should she choose not to work. We all know that these days, it takes two decent salaries to get a mortgage unless you go down the free/subsidised council house route.

If they do want to change that particular provision, then as another poster has already said, change "woman" to "person". I am inclined however to think that there is a bigger agenda here to squeeze in unnecessary specifics to pander to other ideologies. The constitution need not be and is not supposed to be a document for such unnecessary specifics.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328751#Comment_120328751

Okay, I'll bite. They've stated that they intend to add the concept of gender equality into the constitution. They've also mentioned a particular case where a specific gender was explicitly called out as fulfilling a subservient role. Are there other cases where a specific gender is listed as having a specific role that need to be changed?

TagoMago

Seems like real soft-ball stuff; "we will forever be remembered as the government that enshrined gender equality in our nation's constitution", etc. despite it making very little difference to anyone's lives

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328859#Comment_120328859

Do you consider a parent staying at home to focus on raising and taking care of the family to be a "sub" role?

I personally see it as an extremely important role and one in which I couldn't possibly manage full time as it is a challenging role and takes a lot to fill. I wouldn't consider it a subservient position at all. I don't understand some people who have the mentality that being a stay at home parent is any less important than going to work most days of the week. Both roles are important in their own right and both roles make valuable contributions to society.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328694#Comment_120328694

So, it would make sense to simplify things maybe as the poster said "simply get rid of the entire provision rather than attempt to amend it"?

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328897#Comment_120328897

It is an important role. And it is also an unpaid one. And one that the constitution assigns specifically to women. The constitution specifically calls out women to stay in a position where they have no income of their own and so are dependant on their partner to support them. THAT is what makes it a subservient role.

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328913#Comment_120328913

And what woman feels that are unable to go to work because of this?

None.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328913#Comment_120328913

On the contrary, the constitution specifically offers women greater protection by giving women a choice to stay at home rather than be forced to work out of economic necessity. This makes it much easier for a woman to claim benefits and she still has the OPTION/CHOICE to go out and work if she wishes to. Men don't have that same protection. You make it sound like women are being forced into subservient roles, which is simply not true. The current article is beneficial to women and is not the shackles and chains you make it out to be.

kowloonkev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328923#Comment_120328923

I'll go one step further and guarantee you that 99% of the women (and men) didn't even know this phrase existed in the constitution.

I mean, hands up anyone on this forum who was troubled by this particular piece of text before yesterday.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328906#Comment_120328906

depends on if you think the role of a home maker is beneficial to the state and should be recognised as such.

if you dont... then remove it from the constitution.... if you do, they just change "woman" to "person"