Stop cock on live pipe

TheMilkyPirate

Hi lads renovating a house at the minute and we cut the mains pipe with the consaw when getting ready to kango the floors. It's a lead pipe and have it belted over with a hammer at the moment to stop the water. Stop cock on the house is buried under an extension and inaccessible, stop cock on the street isn't connected.

I came across the Aladdin isolator valve online, will that work on a lead pipe? It's a bit thicker than a copper pipe. If not have we any other options?

TheMilkyPirate

Pic

T-Maxx

If it's supplied off the IW network which it sounds it is then surely the stopcock should be connected? If it's not get them to fix it.

TheMilkyPirate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120317830#Comment_120317830

Said they can't do anything as the original stopcock with UISCE written on it is buried under the extension. The one outside on the street is from the water meters they were never connected up

userfriendly

Would replacing the lead pipe under the IW scheme be any use?

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/housing_grants_and_schemes/lead_piping_grant_scheme.html

TheMilkyPirate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318513#Comment_120318513

Not really an option due to initial cost, time and amount of work involved.

Would it be possible to get a fitting on the pipe while it's live. Water getting anywhere doesn't matter as the house is a shell at the moment

10-10-20

How far does the lead pipe go, to the boundary or all the way out to the main pipe?

Can you intercept the pipe in a trench at the property boundary and would IW then fit the required stopcock?

The Continental Op

Its quite possible to do this with the pipe live. However you will get wet and if you are not very well prepared very wet.

Firstly you need the right sized fittings. That I'll leave to you but I'd be looking at a modern type plastic fitting Philmac used to do a universal joiner that will do the job. Then you really need a bit of old pipe to practice putting the fitting on so you don't waste time when the pipe is cut.

Next I'd make up a short section of pipe with a quarter turn BALL valve in it connected to the fitting that will go on the lead pipe. Then make sure you have the easiest access possible to the old pipe by digging out as well as possible then cut it and make your new joint with the ball valve open. Once you've tightened up your fitting on the lead close the ball valve off job done, go and dry off.

I've not done this with lead but have done it lots of time with plastic pipes. If you do it right then you shouldn't have the water flowing for more than 30 seconds probably less.

The reason its easy is because you are working with the ball valve open so there is no pressure on the joints as you make them. The worst bit is just getting the fitting over the pipe as thats when water sprays all over you. I always use a quarter turn ball valve as it seems to provide the least back pressure when fully open and is quick to turn off.

Edit> This is the fitting I'd https://www.heatmerchants.ie/philmac-utc-15mm-21mm-x-25m-transition-coupler-u56634 don't think its cheap, get a bit of pipe and a philmac quater turn ball valve at the same time. Obviously if you are joining the pipe back up lead to lead you need two of the transition couplers but you still need the ball valve and to do the live end first. Just leave it open and burry the ball valve when you have finished. The technical info for the transition coupler https://www.philmac.com.au/app/uploads/2020/03/Philmac-UTC-tech-manual-METRIC.pdf looked it up to check if you needed any form of insert in the lead pipe - you don't its just cut push on and tighten.

Hopefully my final edit, you will need to cut the lead pipe cleanly and quickly. I suspect cutting with a hacksaw will get you soaked and may leave burs that may mess up the joint. A plastic pipe cutter may be a better option example here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWQ2vMpf8qA

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319713#Comment_120319713

Good tips. And can I add - have a parer or small knife ready to clean off the freshly cut surface of the pipe so that you don't get hung-up on the chad.

TheMilkyPirate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319713#Comment_120319713

That's extremely helpful thanks very much. I think the lead pipe is 22mm so would the coupler you linked fit? Just want to make sure I buy the right one

The Continental Op

Ideally take a bit of the pipe with you to check. I suspect this is the one you want https://brooksonline.ie/philmac-universal-transition-joiner-21-27mm-x-25mm-3-4-ul5990 I believe the Philmac code for it is 1043 (from the pdf I linked above Ref no 70 1043 00)

So that one is a 3/4" on the std black alkythane pipe side so should take what I believe is called 1/2inch heavy and the universal end will tighten up on anything between 21mm and 27mm diameter. On the 3/4" side you can get inserts for whatever pipe you are connecting to. 1/2" heavy is OK to bury.

The heat merchants one may be different all you can do is call in or phone and ask, most builders merchants and glambia keep philmac couplings but I suspect those transition joiners are a bit more specialist. However if there is a lot of lead pipe still in our area the builders merchants will probably know all about it and have suitable fittings.

Edit> Checking the code numbers in pdf it looks like the one I linked to in my first post is going to be too small as its max pipe size on the universal side of the coupling is 21mm. Be careful measuring the lead and measure as round a section as you can find, also you need to cut back to a good round section of lead pipe to make the joint.

GreeBo

Might be worth getting the joint on before you cut the lead pipe, that way you are not trying to get it over any burrs etc. and can "just" slide it back into place.

I'd be practicing cutting a lead pipe and ensuring that you can get a fitting to make a seal as the lead will easily deform if you are wrestling with it, the water pressure might be your friend here!

edit to add that I would be getting this solved properly before going much further, as no stopcock on a live mains is going to backfire at some point, especially with a lead pipe.

TheMilkyPirate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320311#Comment_120320311

Cheers thanks again, picked up the coupler and the ball valve there earlier in the builders merchants so will go at it tomorrow. Got the pipe freezing kit as well even if it freezes it for 5 seconds it will save a bit of mess.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320344#Comment_120320344

Thanks what do you mean by get the joint on before I cut the lead pipe?

10-10-20

Thanks what do you mean by get the joint on before I cut the lead pipe?"

I think he was indicating that you sometimes can disassemble or loosen the joint and assemble it onto the pipe before tightening it down, but I don't think that's an option here as you have bent the pipe.

The Continental Op

Cheers thanks again, picked up the coupler and the ball valve there earlier in the builders merchants so will go at it tomorrow. Got the pipe freezing kit as well even if it freezes it for 5 seconds it will save a bit of mess.

Belt and braces ;-) The freeze kits work well on metal pipes and even better as there is no water flowing. Give it time to work and it should give you more than enough time.

Is this the time to think about where you put that stop valve? If you are going to all this effort you might as well put it somewhere where it can get some use? Is it worth digging a load more of the lead pipe up so you can reduce the amount in the house to a minimum. Also while you obviously have the floor up it would be a good opportunity to get a plastic pipe from the inside to the outside making it easier later if the lead is replaced. Even a sensibly positioned run of conduit from inside to outside might save time and money in the future. What I'd consider doing is getting rid of the lead inside altogether and get that universal coupling fitted to the lead pipe outside the house (even if it means digging up concrete) so then internally at least no more lead.

With good planning and preparation this really is a 2 minute job.

The Continental Op

OP how did it go?

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120321717#Comment_120321717

if you have just bashed the end of the pipe then you might/should be able to get the fitting on over it while the water is still stopped. You then push it out of the way while you cut the pipe, then its simpler to slide the couple back down the pipe to make the joint, rather than struggle to get it over the freshly cut edge while the water is spewing everywhere :)

It also means that you are not dragging the new o rings/seals over the cut edge which could damage them

oleras

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329884#Comment_120329884

And more importantly, did you video it ?

TheMilkyPirate

Job done today, new stop cock in the kitchen now. Didn't bother freezing it just cut and put it on. Thanks for all your help

The Continental Op

I take it the lead pipe is coming out of a concrete foundation of some kind?

Sorry I missed that in my earlier posts. You were obviously stuck making a joint on the bit of pipe we could see and didn't have much choice in where the joint was made?

TheMilkyPirate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120346146#Comment_120346146

No its just a very confined space and digging anymore than the foot we had already went would have been too awkward. Turned out well in the end anyway