Metal pendant light rose wiring ID

Paremon

Electrical DIY newb but I need to learn how to perform basic electrical tasks such fit pendant lights, as in this case. Disclaimer: I've read up on how to safely isolate the individual circuit(s) I'll be working on & how to perform isolation tests, proving etc, but still I'll likely just turn off the main isolator switch for this task. I've also read up on the most common wiring setups for pendants (junction box, simple rose, looped etc). I just need a hand on this one.

Current setup:

New build. 

1x 3 gang switch with each switch dedicated to a single light. 

Switch 1 controls kitchen recessed downlights 1

Switch 2 controls dining room light 2 (ceiling rose. Currently a plastic pendant light)

Switch 3 controls dining room light 3 (ceiling rose. Currently a plastic pendant light)

Future setup:

I need to remove the plastic pendants at lights 2 & 3 fit a metal pendant in their place (1 at rose 2 & 1 at rose 3) & retain the existing switch control mechanism (switches 2 & 3). 

Issue: On removal of the plastic cap covering rose 2 & 3 I see less wires than I would expect however. While this is good in terms of less wiring complexity I'd like to firstly understand why there are less wires & identify exactly which wire is which before I rewire it into a new rose (eg using a few Wagos 221 connectors & enclosure box) in the same pattern. 

Attached is a pic of each of the 2 current roses, each with the existing plastic pendant attached (which of course doesn't have or need an Earth but the metal pendant will).

If this was a simple rose setup per

https://flameport.com/electric/lighting_circuits/lighting_ceiling_rose.cs4

IMG_20230212_172943~2.jpg

I could understand it but the lack of wires & different wiring pattern in my setup has me scratching my head. Anyone here able to identify which wire is likely which (besides the blue N & brown L from the plastic pendant at the farmost left & right). 

10-10-20

Hi - you just have a different arrangement to what Flameport is showing. I think it's called "loop at switch".

The line/L in your case is being looped/distributed to all three lighting circuits at the switch - you should see the loop from common to common if you look. On the Flameport example Line comes in at the rose (IN on the image), routing out from the rose (SWITCH) and then back up the same SWITCH line. Neutral then runs from rose to rose in a single wire.

Your method is more common and saves copper as there isn't a double-up on the run back through to the switch.

This is the concept but does not show the loop as there is only one switch and uses 3-core/T&E as the run out to the light (where you have 1-core runs):

https://flameport.com/electric/lighting_circuits/lighting_loop_at_switch.cs4

kirk.

There's basically 3 methods , the singles method , 3-plate method and T+E looped to switch

Your lamp in photo is wired in the singles method

The flameport link in OP is the 3-plate method

T+E looped to switch is the best method

..Single T+E at light for easy wiring

..No voltage at lamp when switch off

. Supply neutral at switch for smart control

Paremon

Thanks 10-10-20 & Kirk,

Unless I'm missing something (most likely) there seems to be 2 different opinions here on the type of wiring I have, namely 'loop at switch' or 'singles method'. Not sure which I have. Anyone have a wiring diagram for singles method?

kirk.

That picture is the singles method

10-10-20

Singles is easy.

L and N come into the back of the switch box.

• N goes out in a "single" (1-core) and loops from rose to rose (that's why you see two blues in that rose).
• L loops into each of the three common inputs on the switch and a single (1-core) switched L goes out from L1 to each rose.

Have a look at the back of the switch - it should be simple to see from that.

10-10-20

Actually, John Ward has it documented, except he's using T&E rather than singles, see second image:

https://flameport.com/electric/lighting_circuits/connect_at_switch_for_garage_or_loft.cs4

So in your instance the duplicate N feeds shown in that image in each T&E is just made up of one single run which loops.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120312791#Comment_120312791

There's no N at switch in the singles method

It's looped from pendant to pendant and L is looped from switch to switch

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120312770#Comment_120312770

Singles is very similar to that

The earthing may not be done that exact way .

Earthing may loop at light not switch with the same link in between as in pic

Paremon

Seems to be agreement re singles method but not an agreement on how singles are wired. I'd like to see a diagram of the true end to end wiring.

Kirk do you have a wiring diagram (switch & pendant) for how you think singles method wiring is done? This for comparison to 10-10-20's link

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120312898#Comment_120312898

That's the T+E looped to switch method

It's the end of the line so to speak , there usually a T+E supply looped onto next switch

Paremon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120312975#Comment_120312975

Thanks, but I thought you said I have the singles method, as opposed to 'T+E looped to switch' method or 3 plate. 🤔

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120313094#Comment_120313094

Correct

kirk.

That's 3-plate

Easy enough to remember 3- plate and T+E looped to switch

One the T+E supply is looped to the pendants , the other the T+E supply is looped at the switches

Paremon

I'll have to get my head around the wiring method later, I'm seeing interchangeable references to different wiring method names, which is throwing me off. But then again it's been a very long week at work so I may not be looking at this clearly. I'll defer the task itself to tomorrow.

Meantime, regardless of wiring method/names all I need to do is just recreate the existing rose as is, with the addition of attaching the existing Earth to the new metal pendant's Earth right?

And to do this all I'll need per rose is 3 3-way connectors (1 for blue wires, 1 for brown wires & 1 for earth) + a junction box right?

If so I presume these products would do the trick?

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/wago-222-series-32a-3-way-lever-connector-50-pack/76776

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/wago-24a-light-junction-box-grey/8423f

Or could I get away with something more basic to recreate the rose within the pendant base itself (see pic attached) with 3 3-way Wagos, negating the need to tuck a terminal box within the ceiling? Would that be safe enough?

IMG_20230304_143624.jpg

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120312798#Comment_120312798

Ah. Thanks for pointing that out.

Did I mention that I'm a hack? 😂

Paremon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120313162#Comment_120313162

Bump

kirk.

Maybe do a little research yourself

Just saying

Paremon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314181#Comment_120314181

Yeah I have & I've found the above products but given as I didn't find a clear-cut answer elsewhere during my research I'm asking on this helpful forum from those more in the know if it's ok/safe to A) put wago connectors into the pendant fitting, rather than B) into an enclosure that goes into the void. Option A would save hassle, time & mess Vs B.

Btw your other replies above were helpful, thanks again. If my previous newb post inadvertently offended in some way, then apologies.