15 minute cities and other conspiracies

looksee

Are we all victims of a conspiracy to mess up the world by spreading conspiracy theories? Can you have a conspiracy theory about conspiracy theories? Whatever about arguing about whether anyone actually went to the moon, conspiracy theories have spread like wildfire over various aspects of the Covid pandemic, lgbt+, immigration, race, climate, politics - especially Trump, and, I think, the Sovereign Citizen/Freeman movements are largely based on conspiracy theory type ideas. These are conspiracies that do damage, baselessly finding nonsense theories to wind up gullible people and create social unrest where it is not justified. There are lots of social issues worthy of debate and protest without inventing stuff.

Its not a new phenomenon, two major conspiracy theories were the endlessly evil role of Jews in society, which still goes on to some extent, and the searching out of mostly harmless old women and declaring them witches, in both cases based on warped and vicious ideas largely in the name of religion. Religion provided the ultimate conspiracy theory of controlling the masses and it worked for centuries, but now most of us are getting over it, are the CTs just filling a vacuum?

One CT now emerging concerns the '15 minute cities' idea. Its hard to know how much of this is media hype - are there really so many objections to the idea or is it a slow news day? I have seen a couple of articles about this but, while there are always two sides to a discussion, its hard to see how people can so quickly turn to conspiracy. I seem to recall at the start of Covid the restrictions were to be permanent and it was all a world conspiracy. One of the most telling phrases in the link below is that when it was proposed for Oxford a lot of the objections came from outside the UK, presumably from professional conspiracy theorists looking for something to stir up.

The idea of every neighbourhood having basic amenities, and some vehicle traffic being re-routed to open up town and city centres a bit seems like a good idea - and I say that as someone who is not as mobile as I was and would find it difficult to have to walk long distances to my car, especially if I had bags to carry. This has already happened to some extent in a good few cities that I can think of, London has had a congestion charge since 2006 which might have annoyed some residents but did not lead to claims that people were being trapped in post-apocalypse-type districts. Certainly there is discussion to be had locally about the proposals, but the argument that it is a world plot to confine people seems irrational.

I debated whether this should go into CT but that tends to be more focussed on specific conspiracies, I don't want to get side-tracked into the individual conspiracies, I am more thinking of the overall effect of conspiracy theories and possibly social media promoted ideas generally.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/26/world/15-minute-cities-conspiracy-theory-climate-intl/index.html

sydthebeat

Most conspiracy theories are as a result of people not understanding what they are talking about, and this is no different.

The fact there is absolutely no restriction of movement blows this conspiracy theory out of the water at the very first instance, but you'll still have stupid people try to claim something nefarious is being driven by some big bad unseen force

xzanti

I think they're a great idea. I mean when Covid happened it would have been great not to have to travel far for food shopping etc. There'll be no need for anyone to have the excuse of "needing" to travel more than 15 minutes for amenities when... Sorry I mean 'if' another pandemic for example hits. It'll save a lot of time and work for the authorities policing people's movements. Bring it on I say.

Manach

Tell me, do you not get the irony of warning of CTs and declaiming anything you do not like (eg Religion) as also a CT. This is the form of appeal of ex cathedra agrument to the poster's authority but built on a foundation of being right just because one is ascribing to the current right-think. There is a debate to be had on the scope of the social measures being pushed based on the Green agenda, and that is not a CT.

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293417#Comment_120293417

Yes, exactly. But who are the people working away in the background to cause social division and dissention by making stuff up?

Certainly discuss and debate everything, but based on fact, not invented issues.

The CT around 15 minute cities is hilarious. Its right up there with the "birds are not real" CT.

Even a basic understanding of the concept of 15 min cities shows what its about i.e. local amenities within a 15 safe walk or cycle, nothing more.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293444#Comment_120293444

you'll find they are grifters looking to make money out of it. they see a growing market and they see profit.

heres an example....

there was a "documentary" released online last year which went viral called "died suddenly", which claimed the covid vaccine was an secret effort to depopulate the masses. The "documentary" was fully of already debunked conspiracy theory misrepresentation and lies around covid, and its sole intention was to go viral and get fame for the producers of it.

One of the guys behind the project, a radio host called stew peters, is selling "shield protectors" which he claims:

Protect yourself from the vaccinated today with a personalized shield protector that zaps spike proteins before they get on you!

https://gab.com/RealStewPeters/posts/109565176323825852

this stuff is so laughably obvious, but there are enough stupid, scared and uneducated people out there for these guys to make a mint from.

thats their raison d'etre.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293478#Comment_120293478

"birds are not real"

LOL i havent heard of that one.

let me guess, pushed by the flat earthers?

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293478#Comment_120293478

You know the "birds are not real" is a parody?

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293520#Comment_120293520

Started as a parody

Dslatt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293520#Comment_120293520

Qanon started as trolling on 4chan and look at where we are now

growleaves

Niccolo Machiavelli wrote his books 'History of Florence', 'Discourses on Livy' and 'The Prince' as an insider because he thought ordinary Florentines didn't appreciate that duplicity, deceit and political conspiracies were central to how life was organised from above.

As for right now, it's pretty simple: many people are open to *any* conspiracy theory because they don't trust the authorities.

The people who do trust the authorities aren't open to conspiracy theories in general and will ridicule all of them.*

Don't make it complicated because it isn't.

* Exception is officially-approved theories like 'Russia elected Trump and he is their agent' which is okay because the NYT and Washington Post push it

growleaves

'Religion provided the ultimate conspiracy theory of controlling the masses'

Don't understand what you're saying here. What is the ultimate conspiracy theory provided by religion?

Atheism can be used to control the masses too.

All the atheist posters on boards would cut their arm off rather than disagree with any powerful faction in society. Their ire is always against powerless scapegoats, unpopular political figures, weakened religions etc.

Thelonious Monk

It's funny also that a lot of these conspiracy theory folks on Irish Twitter anyway who go on about the WEF and vaccines often have "Proud Catholic Mammy!" etc. in their bios. Seems to be a crossover. I think they do it in a trying to preserve the old Irish Catholic identity kind of way, most of them probably don't have a Christian bone in their body though .

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293520#Comment_120293520

Oh I know, my point is the 15 min cities CT is as stupid as that one

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293722#Comment_120293722

How can atheism be used to control the masses.

Do you tell them if they don't listen you will send them to the heaven they don't believe in?

Polar101

Feels like it's decline of civilization in a way. There is so much information available that if people used that for something useful, many of the problems of the world could be solved. Instead, people spend time inventing their own "facts" because they are convinced they are being lied to by - politicians, scientists, mass media - pick your poison. I don't like the comparison with religion, because believing in something isn't inherently bad, but there are a lot of people out there who would believe the world is flat, if a guy on the internet told them so.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293766#Comment_120293766

Yeah if you look at that whole side of Irish Twitter it's like a Venn Diagram with all these different circles that massively overlap with each other.

For example:

• Anti-vaxxers
• Anti-migration accounts
• WEF / Soros / Chemtrails .... basically full-on CT content
• Catholic Conservatives (lots of anti-abortion, anti-LGBT content)
• Traditional Irish accounts (Irish names, pictures of Irish legends, celtic crosses etc with a good helping of racism)
• Anti-EU (basically an Irish spin on the pro-Brexit accounts)
• Anti-war accounts that blame the USA for everything ( ie just seem to regurgitate blatant Russian propaganda uncritically)

Some people will naturally fit into some of those areas but not others but there is massive cross-pollination going on between them. That is partly because of the way that the social media algorithms work but also because if you are pre-disposed to consume disinformation of one kind then you are more likely to uncritically take in that of other kinds too.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293478#Comment_120293478

I once lived in an estate where you had to walk three-quarters of a mile to get to the estate the other side of a fence. Maybe if our planners started by getting rid of this sort of obstacle, which is very common in all our towns and cities, life would become a little more pleasant for us all.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293847#Comment_120293847

Because the atheist masses have no underlying motivation to rock the boat - because they often lack for any strong beliefs at all.

In practice many are nihilists or demoralised.

They are not difficult to control from the p.o.v. of the techno-bureaucrats who run our society.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293862#Comment_120293862

There's another correlation that you haven't touched on.

Political liberalism is about freeing people from traditional attachments ("the chains of the past") that could potentially limit their autonomy, their freedom to form their own identity totally, and the capacity to realise equality.

So people who are motivated to be oppose political liberalism, even just a little, are more likely to place value on things like Irish history, trad Irish Catholicism, native make-up of population. And to oppose a super-bureaucracy (EU) which stops particularist elements like history and culture from interfering with ideal abstractions like equality.

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293417#Comment_120293417

The more successful the 'climate movement' is, the less travel outside of walking and cycling there will be.

It won't happen through blanket travel bans, but through pricing and licencing ('permits' are discussed in the linked article).

That's not a conspiracy theory, it's physical reality.

The article sets forth the worry that the conspiracy theory will make implementing these policies difficult: I'm pretty sure it will make it easier. Being able to characterise your opposition as fruitcakes is useful.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293862#Comment_120293862

Just as a matter of curiosity, and to take just one of those you mention: I'd like to know how you view Soros.

Thespecific reason I ask this is because of the part he played in the meltdown of Sterling back in 1992 - no conspiracy theory, BTW.

It was apparently all legal, and I'm not aware that he suffered for doing so; quite the opposite - he made a fortune out of doing so. There are people who might portray his activities as being of a conspiratorial nature.

20Wheel

Oftentimes its just a contrarian thing.

Another version of the class goth. Im different and therefore better.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293478#Comment_120293478

I'm actually delighted that post pandemic the conspiracy nuts have gone back to their "normal" lives same as the rest of us.

This is proper old fashioned moon landing conspiracy madness.

looksee

In practice many are nihilists or demoralised.A

I don't feel even remotely demoralised or nihilistic! If 'being controlled' means acting for the greater good and generally trying to live a reasonable, socially useful and productive life, I have no problem with being what you describe as controlled.

My reference to religion was probably not clearly expressed in terms of religion being a conspiracy theory, I meant that it was used by self-appointed individuals to achieve power and wealth by spreading information - which is pretty much what the CT's do.

The urge to immediately smear anyone protesting anything as a conspiracy theorist is an odd phenomenon though..

Like, the 15 minute city was being discussed there for a while..It's not a conspiracy theory like..

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294002#Comment_120294002

and that opinion complete dismisses the move towards non fossil fuel based travel methods, a move which is very much underway already.

we already have 3 hydrogen powered buses in dublin, and you can travel from Valentia island to the giants causeway non stop in an electric vehicle if you want to. there will be nothing restricting you from travelling in the future, it will just be a greener way of doing it.

the "climate movement" is not something to be scared by, its not only valuable bu absolutely necessary.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294120#Comment_120294120

It is to the people who think you will be locked into your 15 minute zone like the Hunger Games.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294114#Comment_120294114

What am I missing?

decades of poor town and city planning.

this "15 min city" is just another planning policy which attempts to rectify that. It is a noble and aspirational policy, but it will eventually be ground down by typical greed and corruption that is at the base of human nature.

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294129#Comment_120294129

In a zero-carbon world, travel will still be possible, but it will be more expensive, and thus there will necessarily be less of it.

If you think you can maintain your current living standards using intermittent, diffuse and hard to store energy sources, as opposed to the concentrated ones you can literally dig out of the ground - you are simply wrong.

You might point to societal benefits from this transition, or be happy that it's worth it. Just don't delude yourself, and don't characterise the opposition to it as conspiracy theorists.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294100#Comment_120294100

Its not what I describe as controlled. Its just the dictionary definition. The controllers of society want you to do x, y and z and you say you are happy to do x, y and z.

Though I haven't said that obedience is either good or bad. It depends on the motivation and the context imo.

Religion can be very motivating towards action. But Christians get derided both for being servile and for being troublemakers (not being servile enough).

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294002#Comment_120294002

The permits you refer to are for time filters on 6 streets. You are right that through pricing they are trying to reduce traffic on these particular streets during peak hours, people are free to drive these roads during the specified times as there will be no physical barriers but they will be fined if they don't have a permit. So yes while it is a physical reality, I think it's important to be specific. Phrases like "permits are discussed" are vague and only feed disinformation and conspiracy theories.

Here is the full proposal on the filters and permits.

https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/residents/roads-and-transport/connecting-oxfordshire/traffic-filters#paragraph-12853

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294210#Comment_120294210

Am I right in saying there is no restriction on travel?

correct. theres nothing stopping you now, nor in the future. There will be nothing restricting you from that being the ONLy way to get there.

however, it currently takes you about 15 minute to make that drive, and you could subway it in 4 minutes and it would cost you a lot less.

single person travel methods in cities is uneconomical, so those who wish to utilise them will have to pay for them.

if, in a "15 minute city" it took 15 minutes to walk from your home to the cinema, say, but it took you 20 minutes to drive... which would you do?

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293936#Comment_120293936

You're kidding right? Most studies show that atheists in the west know more about morality and even religion, than religious people do.

For many of them they've rejected to orthodoxy that existed in their societies.

Now maybe in 100 years, if athiests are in the majority you might be able to say that, but right now I'd say a lot are very clued in.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293862#Comment_120293862

Yes this sums up Irish Twitter very well. There are also so many accounts with names like "Niamh NiDhulaigh" or "Sorcha NicDiarmaida" etc. with pictures of Grainne Mhaol etc. who have all that Catholic anti abortion "Real Irish Woman!" in their bios. Obviously just blokes pretending to be women.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294375#Comment_120294375

What "study" shows that atheists know more about religion than the religious?

Are you a time traveller?

Because atheists are already in the majority and most are rigidly conformist when it comes to the actual power structures in our society.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294210#Comment_120294210

It's just saying a good quality of life is to not need to have to travel more than 15 minutes for the essentials.

Nobody is having travel blocked. This is what makes it a conspiracy theory.

Plenty of people in Ireland already live in a 15 minute city. For instance if you live and work in a town or city centre (outside Dublin) you are probably already in one.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294032#Comment_120294032

How do I view Soros? No different to any other international financier. As regards the 1992 Sterling crisis: He (along with many others) saw that the peg was unsustainable between Sterling and the German currency given what else was happening in their respective economies. He bet heavily against it and made a lot of money when the UK pulled out of the ERM. I don't understand why that would be the basis of a conspiracy theory? That kind of thing is 10 a penny in financial circles. Bond traders and Forex traders are always betting against this or that country.

Over in CT-land Soros appears to have taken on some demonic appearance. Let's call a spade a spade here. It's usually straight up anti-semtism. He's a super wealthy jew who gives a lot of money to "leftist" causes and organisations. I'm sure there are others like him but he seems to be the ones that they always gravitate toward. At 92 years old he's probably not going to be around much longer. I wonder who will get promoted into his place when he is gone.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294529#Comment_120294529

If it is then people aren't embracing the concept judging by the amount of cars on the roads. The whole idea behind the concept is that people can walk or cycle (not drive) to work/school/shops/leisure activities in 15min.

Sephiroth_dude

Mod

Gonna move this from CA to conspiracy theories forum as its not really a CA topic

Pherekydes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293936#Comment_120293936

If that was true we'd all still be catholic.

It's the religious types of old who would be calling people conspiracy theorists these days..

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294503#Comment_120294503

Les likely to have work in your 15mins in Dublin. Possible but less likely.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294902#Comment_120294902

I work 15 mins from my home and no it's not work from home. When I worked hospitality in Limerick it was very common to live a 15min cycle from work.

Many people would live and work in city centres which is why I said Dublin is different.

Again it's not something that even it's supporters think is always possible. It's only the CT loons are making it out to be dogma.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294430#Comment_120294430

You think atheists are in the majority in Ireland? Now that's a conspiracy theory.

Most atheists in Ireland, and most western countries, are like me. They weren't raised in atheist households. So a lot of them would have questioned their upbringing. They would have questioned their religion. They learn about other religions. then they become atheists. So in the future, when people are raised atheist then maybe they won't question and learn about religion as much. But for a few generations that won't be the case.

As for studies.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/21/among-religious-nones-atheists-and-agnostics-know-the-most-about-religion/#:~:text=Here%20are%20five%20key%20findings,are%20among%20the%20least%20knowledgeable.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2010/09/28/130191248/atheists-and-agnostics-know-more-about-bible-than-religious

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293436#Comment_120293436

And you lot mock the CT'ers !!! . this is bonkers

This lad welcomes policing peoples movements !!?!?!? ! Bring it on he says .... 😣

>>Mod Snip<< @greenspurs play the ball not the man - HS

If you are being sarcastic, i apologise for not 'getting it'

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296436#Comment_120296436

I know, it's laughable really

One second we have the Boards Catholics saying "Ireland is a catholic country" (whatever that's actually supposed to mean in reality) and then use that to try to justify control of schools etc., and sure just look at the census. Then when it suits them it's the poor mouth and how it's all so unfair that other people won't follow their doctrines anymore and darkly hinting about 'forces' in society (the absolute and utter rank irony and hypocrisy of that never occurs to them).

Reality check - 95% of primary schools in this country are controlled by a church and there is still not even a plan to change this apart from a little tinkering around the edges. So much for "powerless".

Deja Boo

There are some public transport zones in the states.

(edited post, done here)

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298952#Comment_120298952

Where would that be exactly then?

Don't suppose that you've invented some conspiracy around some cheap ticket subscription have you?

*Puts hand up to ask a question*

I live about 20 mins from work. Will I be allowed to leave my zone or will I have to just wither and die on the outskirts, peering in?

This thread:-)