Cost of 1 day cycling licence

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This discussion was created from comments split from: Cycling Ireland?.

The Davestator

I see CI are increasing the day licence from €10 to €20 from February. It wasn't that long ago it was €2 so a 1000% increase in a few years. It wont be good for participation of occasional leisure cycling people and the events they do.

Usual guff about costs, even though insurance costs are going down in Ireland.

AxleAddict

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154633#Comment_120154633

Yeah - when I started cycling in 2016 it was €5 for a day license (which I thought was reasonable enough - although I ended up getting an annual license anyway), then it went up to €10 a few years back, and now it's gonna be €20 a pop! Will be cheaper just to go for the annual license if you intend to participate in 3 or more CI events throughout the year, but I do think they're taking the mick doubling the cost again so soon after the last one.

magicbastarder

is that due to insurance costs? it might be outside their control.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156318#Comment_120156318

I don't think there is much in their control, ODLs (I strongly suspect) are more expensive from the insurance company, they would only be raising them in line with the insurance provider. Same way for me to insure a van for a weekend, is almost 1/3 the cost of insuring one for a whole year.

magicbastarder

mod - i've split this out from the zombie thread it was posted in

Mercian Pro

The statement on the CI website makes no mention of rising insurance costs but says "This is a necessary step brought about by increased costs and inflationary pressure which has been experienced by organisations nationwide." If they are short of funds in CI, I strongly suspect consultants and legal fees are probably a bigger drain on the budget.

It's great to see that CI's own Leisure Commission have come out strongly against the increase. Hopefully clubs, who often rely on income from annual sportives, will oppose it too.

Large bottle small glass

I've been meaning to do a FOI request for a while; I'll report how that goes.

My suspicion is that leisure membership and their insurance contribution makes racing insurance viable but hard to know without the data.

This feels like trying to squeeze another egg out of the golden goose but who knows for sure.

ratracer

Although I’m a long time member of CI, I think this increase is disgraceful and without proper foundation. The extra €10 insurance was slipped into Leisure memberships a few years ago, when previous to that it was included in the fee.

How can a 100% cost increase be justified?

Will/ can organisations or clubs just run sportives without CI backing? The one and only reason I paid for CI (Leisure) membership this year was to stay a member of my club, I don’t see any value in it other than that requirement.

magicbastarder

based on hearing about insurance issues in two (non-cycling related) organisations i'm a member of, i'd be astounded if insurance issues and costs weren't a pain in the hoop for CI.

Cionn

I wonder if this was part of the discussion at the CI AGM last year. So much for encouraging people to get insurance and help cover for accidents. I don't see how this can align with their intention of "getting people cycling". The cost has risen from €2-€20 in less than 10 years, also the CI insurance is now a bolt on €10 when getting your annual membership. In addition to this I believe (but others can correct me if I am wrong) the cover has been downgraded.

I did hear of one situation , where there was a clear cut accident on a Sportive from two CI members and the insurance assessors still chased one party as they knew they had reasonable funding.

This has intrigued me enough to look at their website to see whats there:

Per their Strategic Plan 2020-2024

"Strategic Pillar One Deliver the best cycling participation experiences and environment to grow and sustain the number of people cycling in Ireland"

Having looked at the plan, this may be related to 1.1.5 "Growth of membership numbers through attraction of new members and retention of existing members"

So make it cheaper to join CI if you participate in 3+ Sportive's and get your KPI's up, job done.

Mefistofelino

CI is a racing organisation underwritten by the non-racing membership. The accounts have shown this story for some years now. The income from racing licences and racing sponsorship didn't cover the cost of promoting racing last time I checked and I doubt the situation has improved. I seem to recall- but will stand corrected on this- that the racing licence holders also made a greater number of insurance claims.

If an Irish version of Cycling UK was established, it could spell trouble for CI. The membership costs are similar but the benefits appear greater and they do a lot more in terms of cycling advocacy.

mh_cork

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120158332#Comment_120158332

This ^^^^^

I as a club cyclist have to take out C.I. membership, and in doing so I am subsidising the activity of a small number of cyclists (i.e. racing). Cycling Ireland does not advocate for the leisure cyclist and does nothing for those commuting by bike. The only advocate for commuting by bike is by local city groups.

In 2022, they added a 10 euro levy to Munster cyclists that is for the benefit of racing. The irony is that those that would benefit from this (i.e. those that take out competition licenses) only had a 5 euro levy!

https://www.cyclingireland.ie/news-item/cycling-munster-implement-additional-5-levy/

This is not a dig at racing cyclists - I respect anyone who is willing to toe the line at a race. But 95% of cyclists have no interest in racing and we are being treated as a cash cow. And no, subsidising racing does not promote cycling or lead to a trickle down effect. There are far better (and cheaper) ways to encourage an up-take in cycling.

dahat

Munster levy is a joke when you look at the Munster racing calendar. It’s a joke.

€166 all in including club fees for a racing license this year is relatively cheaper compared €75 for a leisure license as most lads would get 10 plus races in a year.

Tigerandahalf

The athletics association of Ireland have also done similar. Unless you are registered with a club you will now have to pay an additional amount to enter a race. Just a cash grab.

I only do 1 or 2 sportives a year and I am just not going to bother with them anymore.

I paid 71eur for Tour de Conamara this year. 11eur for the 1 day licence including a 1eur card charge. It will be 81eur now next year.

Pick a nice sunny day and head out on your own or with a group.

CramCycle

No one's gonna like me saying it but CI is a members organisation. I've been to half the AGMs in the past few years and you know what, f*CK all clubs attending and putting motions forward for leisure members. I feel sorry for the leisure commission as on paper they have the most support but other than the chair of Audax Ireland giving them all a deserved swift kick in the B*llicks down in Kerry, I didn't hear any others standing up from other clubs.

You want change, put forward a motion at the AGM to limit ODL for the next 5 years and rally the troops at every club, otherwise it will happen again. CI is bound by motions, either a fixed ODL is affordable for 5 years or the organisation tanks but unless you turn up at the AGM then you really can't complain. 99% of those there are from racing backgrounds, until you mandate your clubs otherwise, put forward other motions, then there isn't much else to say.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120163098#Comment_120163098

Not sure but if it's not discussed and voted I imagine they have free reign.

DonegalBay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162439#Comment_120162439

Surely the leisure commission is there to represent on behalf of the leisure end of things, yet they were not even consulted on this price increase. What is the point of a leisure commission if it is not involved in decisions regarding the leisure end of cycling? If this was brought up at the AGM, would the leisure commission not have said something at that time?

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120164319#Comment_120164319

Was it brought up? They are only a commission and while they can influence and direct, if senior management take a decision, the leisure commission need the members to turn up at the AGM and vote on it. CI undoubtedly have done this multiple times without consequence so I get why they did again. One of the big flaws of CI is that the AGM effectively acts as a defacto road commission AGM as well, so hence decisions are taken that are heavily swayed by racing members as those are the ones who turn up.

Next year, put a motion in to get it frozen or reduced, and then rally support. The other option would be similar but to petition the leisure commission to object to this, if enough clubs come forward, they will have to row back on it as they run the risk of outrage at the next AGM.

Patches oHoulihan

Are they all powerful?

I do events like RIng of Clare and Tour De Connemara etc- ill not be paying 20 on top of the entry fee next year

easygoing39

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120164384#Comment_120164384

Well by next year a 1 day might be back down to €10 if enough members get motions raised for this years AGM.

Grassey

Sounds like we need to split the disciplines like the UK.

Cycling Ireland / British cycling for competitive cycling.

CyclingUK (previously CTC) / *new Ireland non-racing*

magicbastarder

may or may not be a similar issue - all motorbike road racing in NI has been cancelled for 2023 because of insurance costs?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-64591498

easygoing39

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222866#Comment_120222866

And there'll be no motorbike racing in the Republic this year either!! Cycling Ireland's insurance must have went up too.

CramCycle

I'd be interested for someone to run the numbers of leisure Vs Racer as the difference in license cost is immense. The cheapest racing license is 80% higher than a leisure license and the full racing 160% more. How many more leisure riders are there, do they outweigh all other licences at more than 2 to 1.

Insurance has skyrocketed, that is a fact, which group claims the most. I see accidents in races but I've never been to a leisure event bar audaxes where someone wasn't taken away in an ambulance. Maybe ask CI to get a ppt from the insurance company like they did in Monaghan. My limited experience is anecdoetal but I imagine the cost from leisure is substantially more but I could be wrong.

Again, and I mean this with no disrespect, all of the above aside (and I could hazard a guess, I don't think the numbers will show what people think, I don't think leisure members are keeping the organisation a float). You want change, get to the AGM and vote for it. I would ask that you fully research it as I have seen outraged people turn up at the AGM saying such and such is a disgrace but then a board member stands up and gives the real numbers which often quietens many.

As for the Munster and Ulster extra charge, those were provincial AGM choices. If you don't like them, go to your next provincial AGM and rally the troops as it doesn't go to CI.

Macy0161

Having been on a club committee a number of years, even attendance at club agm's is an issue, never mind CI agm's. (And that applies to Unions, and any other clubs I am, or have been, a member of).

As has been pointed out, sports are just the next "victim" of insurance increases. It was before I joined, but wasn't that part of why the vets came back under the CI umbrella?

I'm still in a whatsapp group with non-club members, and after the initial reaction they kinda calmed down, with the fact the ODL can be off set, the cycle superstore voucher, the VIP membership.

fwiw I went LC this year rather than full racing. Basically my funds at the time - if there's a subsidy from Leisure to Racing, well it certainly isn't making racing more affordable!

Large bottle small glass

18000 leisure v 4000 full competition.

Given the comments on here about rule breaking, sprint finishes, lads with loads of power but no group bike racing skills I'm not sure how you would construct and argument that leisure is the more high risk category.

My guess is racing is unsustainable without the numbers taking out leisure licences underwriting it.

It'd be a short queue looking for the racing market as a standalone group.

The only thing that makes it viable is the cover is sh1t and the relatively large leisure membership.

Cycling Ireland couldn't give me the breakdown in claims per category surprise surprise

Macy0161

The perception is racing is more dangerous, but at the same time there's been serious incidents in sportives in recent years, including at least one fatality. I'm not an actuary, so no idea how these things are calculated - leisure members are insured for the likes of club spins as well as events, does more kilometers overall = more risk for insurance companies?

CramCycle

So back of the envelope, maybe well off, is 90k from leisure Vs 52k from racing. So 36% of the membership income is generated by 18% of the membership. HP and similar is government grants and must be spent on those areas.

That 142k would barely cover admin costs for the organisation, while I doubt they do it, I do wonder which group takes up the most time.

Leisure and Racing events are effectively self funded.

All this aside, unless clubs start voting for changes for leisure riders , nothing will happen. At the last AGM I attended, I noted only one leisure only member who spoke, and there were several members who are leisure in license but are only there for the sport. Now the leisure cyclist who spoke gave a rousing speech in favour of improving things for leisure cyclists but it didn't change the fact that they were the only ones speaking for leisure riders.

dahat

From my limited knowledge I’d see normal Sunday races as self funded or run by clubs with generous sponsors. It’s the elites that will ultimately suffer if the leisure numbers drop off .

Going on the 22k members posted above it’s no wonder that CI are struggling to meet costs both legal & racing for top lads.

benneca1

From an organisers perspective roughly one third of our participants are non CI and will never be. Parents friends etc who support cause and rock up on day. It makes no sense to me that CI makes more than our charity from the goodwill of my neighbours. I can insure an event for about 500 euro this indemnifies the organisers which is all we really want.Its an open road leisure event so normal rules of road apply. Next year I will run event as non CI event up the price 10 euro to cover insurance and at least folks money will be going where I want it. The next question will be what exactly as a club we get from our CI affiliation and can we indemnify committee for less than CU membership fee.I am fed up with Ci firstly how was brought in and secondly a 100% increase is unwarranted.

CramCycle

Personally I'd like cover for the participants as well but you are right, it's on open roads, riders should be able to look after themselves. Make sure you have all your T's crossed and I's dotted. You cannot be indemnified against a breach of the SHWWA, so make sure all paperwork, risk assessments, necessary notifications are all in order. Open roads or not, it is an event your club organised. This applies to CI events as well but at least with a CI event, CI is the person at the top, not the club. Probably the reason they have become so insistent on risk assessments being submitted in recent years.

I can well imagine many clubs going this route if it is that cheap, or pulling it in under another organisations insurance. It's only 25 entrants.

It would of course be far easier to put a motion to the AGM and put up the numbers as to why it was not needed. Should be easy to get the number of ODL last year, and in previous years, see if there is no drop in numbers what the increase take in is and see can CI absorb it. If there were 4000 ODLs last year, that's the wages of one staff member to be absorbed, if there were 1000, it's simply a small reduction in the package offered to the new chief.

It would be good to get clarity from CI if the cost goes straight to the insurer or do they have a set cost regardless. If the former it means off loading this cost elsewhere, if the latter, then where can this cost be absorbed.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224425#Comment_120224425

The only conclusion that can be drawn from your posts is that an organisation historically and now (and it's AGM in particular) dominated by racing cyclists is acting against their own self interests to the benefit of leisure members.

Such true altruism is a delight to witness.

Of course if cycling Ireland just released basic data on breakdown of payouts we would know for sure.

Maybe they are making these insurance decisions blind...

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234891#Comment_120234891

I think if you read a bit further into it you'll see that most of CIs income is grant related not from membership fees. Grants tend to go where numbers or success is, despite IMO it should be used to support those who might not have either. CI benefits hugely from large leisure numbers as it is a metric for grant awards. It's not altruistic, it's mutually beneficial. Leisure members get reduced rates to events, 3rd party insurance and discounts for various retailers. Do they get value for money, that is really dependent on the person. I think I've only ever used one voucher for gym and coffee and haven't done a leisure event in 5 years so for me no, it's just a requirement to race for others it might be huge value for money.

Patches oHoulihan

I'm a leisure cyclist and cycle with a group of about 8 people. We aren't a club, we just go when we can and tend to do the Skoda events and things like that. For fun.

There is a local event to us every Feb and it's a normally well attended charity event. There is a large cycling club in town and I'd know a few of the guys that are organising the event.

Attendance for upcoming event is 50% down on last year so I'm told. The licence issue is a real problem for people.

Entry is advertised at €20 + €1.50 booking fee

One day licence is €20 + €1.50 booking fee

Fees and licences cost more than the entry.

€43 all in for a small local event. Madness.

None of the 8 of us are attending once we saw the cost of the licence double last month.

The club will now suffer and so will the charity

CramCycle

This is aside from the ODL, you could give in 20euro to the charity and just ride the route, its open roads. Anyone here who raises money for charity would prefer that than you not going at all. You'll have to get your own food on the way round but thats about it.

seanin4711

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242486#Comment_120242486

head out and do the event route yourself,never understand folks paying 50+ euro to cycle the open road.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242674#Comment_120242674

in fairness, people enjoy participating in a large group event - you get to cycle in a big group at the start, you meet lots of people around the course and at the food stops, it's a bit of an adventure. Sure there's nothing stopping you riding the route on the day and skipping the food stops but IMO you're freeloading on the time and effort put into organising the event itself, which has to be paid for by someone.

magicbastarder

he may not have meant joining the actual cyclists on the day, to be fair; just riding the same route on a different day.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243088#Comment_120243088

I know, but I have seen suggestions on here before (particularly in relation to the WW200) of just riding the route on the day and buying your own food. Now the price of the WW200 has reached an absurd level, so maybe I'd feel less bad about that...

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243106#Comment_120243106

I can't think of anything worse than riding the WW200 with a couple of thousand cyclists, many of whom are not used to riding around Wicklow, a good few even riding around Ireland, I'd pay not to do it 😯

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243088#Comment_120243088

Also my point to @Patches oHoulihan was simply that if €21.50 was acceptable, just donate that to the charity. Whether you go on the spin is unimportant then. Go out for a coffee and as long a ride as you can muster. Send your mates a whatsapp, tell them to cough up 20 quid each and you will do up a route and you are all doing it on a set date come rain, hail or shine. I agree @loyatemu turning up to another event and riding round at the same time / date is just taking the piss, even if your not using their food stops, you are using their route work, their marshals, and so on. If you don't want to pay it, just do it another weekend. If its for a charity and you are pissed at CI, donate directly to the charity. If its fund raising for a club or something else, just go another weekend, otherwise you are just a cheapskating assh*t. Certain members of Audax UK will welcome you with open arms where people give out about the cost of a full breakfast at a control for 25p.

Charity stuff aside, there are several leisure events I would happily pay entry for it because there is a buzz, there is comradery, there is joy in shared suffering. I have my certificate from the first time I completed the Mick Byrne hung in my garage, I have my first WW200 medal hanging there too, the orwell randonee is a fantastic event, as was the Morgan Sparrow with the Air Corp a few years ago where we got a full MP escort through parts of Wicklow, they had set up a station at the top of one climb and it was phenomenal.

shaneward2004

🚴‍♂️.

https://www.stickybottle.com/sportives/irish-cycling-club-blames-one-day-licence-fee-hike-for-plummeting-sportive-entries/