5th year leaving cert exams?

Daisy 55

Hi all!

Does anyone know if the leaving cert exams at the end of 5th Year are going ahead after all?

Random sample

The English teachers association and Gael linn are currently trying to fight it. Students union and the tui came out against it last week. Norma seems to want it to happen.

Who knows?

Daisy 55

Thank you! I thought I had read that there was a change of plan but I must have imagined ot!

French Toast

Still going ahead afaik. I've yet to speak with a teacher who supports it.

This Leaving Cert reform is going to be just as large a farce as the Junior Cert.

History Queen

Aside from the original announcement there has been no further information provided. It's almost as if Norma pulled theidea straight out of her arse and consulted no one. (Except maybe Hislop who has since retired and was a great advocate for the JuniorCycle fiasco so make of that what you will).

I hate what has been done to education over the last few years.

joebloggs32

The unions are both opposed to it at the moment as there has been zero engagement on the issue. There are numerous problems with just simply pulling forward those two exams by a year.

The students are too. The ISSU are not happy at the lack of planning for this.

Norma is hiding under her desk it would seem hoping some adults might come along and sorr it out.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120153329#Comment_120153329

Me too.

It made a great soundbite - the poor students are stressed, let's break up the core subjects into exams over two years.

How are we going to implement this? No idea.

Aside from implementation problems, it has ramifications for students choosing levels in the core subjects. As it stands they can choose the level on the day of the exam.

maynooth_rules

Norma is literally on her own in supporting this. It's a monumentally stupid decision. Course she will say she is alleviating stress on pupils......by making spreading state exams over two summers rather than one for student 🤦‍♂️

Treppen

Am I correct in saying you'll have over 100k students sitting English if this goes ahead?

If they had a shortage of markers or invigilators before, then this Will make things worse.

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161897#Comment_120161897

Not if they get the teachers to correct their own....

CPTM

I thought continuous assessment was preferred instead of having such a workload at the end of 6th year.. What am I missing there? Wouldn't it be better to focus on one and get it out of the way? Does it also spill into the 2nd paper at the end of 6th year somehow?

The communication around this has been terrible I would say. But I'm surprised so many people are against the continuous assessment type idea?

Random sample

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162064#Comment_120162064

For the first year of it, both 5th and 6th year would be sitting paper 1.

mm and there’s been no mention of when 5th years would sit the 2 exams, would they be on the Wednesday and Friday as is the case currently? So kids would be missing a week of their summer holiday. Not going to go down well! And I know for ordinary level students, they might chose to forfeit the marks from paper one, especially if they aren’t expecting to do well (I’m speaking about Irish here). Also, would the listening be part of it? It’s currently on paper 1, but I’d struggle to have kids ready for it in 5th year.

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162064#Comment_120162064

Splitting the exam in to two different years isn't really continuous assessment.

For assessment to be continuous and effective it needs to be regular assessments over a period of time with (in my opinion anyway) regular feedback and grading. Not really continuous assessment if you aren't getting your results as you go.

Also I'm not sure whether it is preferred or by who considering the ISSU werecomplaining of students being over assessed when some schools attempted to use continuous assessment in the run up to predicted grades.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40090025.html

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162064#Comment_120162064

Imo...the project work etc that was introduced (to address "stress" the students were feeling....or at least that was claimed as a reason, i suspect it had nothing to do with it).....is or will be the cause of much additional stress ....I told students at the time be careful what you wish for when they were moaning about stress.....but the media brainwashing and hand wringing and wailing and gnashing of teeth was long underway at that point..

Imo people will always consider a bird in the hand or what's coming up immediately, the standard of projects will always gradually crank up to the point where they are beyond the level of the course and huge amounts of time will be dedicated to projects that get increasingly intricate/complex and stress the hell out of students....especially those that want max grade/perfectionists etc

In pretending to address stress they seem to have found a way to add to it for everyone 😂....not that anyone in real high up decision making roles really gives a flying toss about teachers or students for that matter....and especially not when the students give them an open goal....they ain't going to not score to protect the students and the dimwits from themselves.

Also people's hands shouldn't be forced into kneejerk reactions because the media whips people up into hysterics every time a LC is held and feeds impressionable minds with the idea they are over stressed....slow and steady should be the way....the same shite is happening in so many areas, out with the old, in with the new shiny thing regardless of how worthless it is or how quick it will tarnish.

In answer to a poster above It also wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the 5th year exams was a complete solo run by a minister that wants to make an announcement first and to hell with the education system.....lets be honest its not as if any of them cared more about the education system than they did about themselves.....although a dangerous influence at least this one's actions are predictable in terms of just wanting to be in the limelight and seen to be something other than a lucky equality hire etc etc .....ruairi quinn, now there's a lad whose desire for a legacy caused untold damage.

In my mind there's really only two logical endpoints to this whole sorry mess

1) get rid of terminal exams altogether and replace with a series of smaller assessments/projects/portfolios that contribute to a final grade and/or introduce an interview component at third level....if that last bit is done watch participation rates of lower socioeconomic economic classes at 3rd level plummet...and if teachers are asked to grade these assessments cue problems also.

2) continue to blunder through with the current half shambles (some subject changes aren't the worst imo)...New JC aside.....then realise as you move closer to 1 above ...huge amounts of the projects/portfolios are increasingly being farmed out to outside expertise/parents or AI platforms (whose output is indistinguishable from genuine work) and then start to go back to pen and paper exams or practicals where the student has to show up on the day and prove they actually know stuff) ...and then turn around at some ill defined point in the future and say well **** it why are we running loads of little exams when it costs so much money? Why don't we just have one big exam at the end of the course?...what do ye think of that lads? Wouldn't that solve all our problems?

And so the circle is complete...or the wheel reinvented....which is what I feel a not insignificant chunk of educational theory is attempting to do.

(Unless we are all running around with neural Jacks connected to Web 52.0 at that stage and assessed by that same AI from birth and everything mapped out and no LC at all)

FoxForce5

Is there an issue with home schooled / extra kids and getting coursework validated ? A neighbour of mine has a young lad doing applied maths as extra subject and school don't offer it nor will they validate project? Seems to go against the high court case during COVID?

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167169#Comment_120167169

That wasn't what the high court case was about. Home schooled students initially were unable to receive predicted grades, in that particular case because the student was taught by his mother. As a result of the case, which they won, the workaround from what I remember is that she could award the predicted grades but they had to be assessed by an independent teacher also.

In terms of coursework, it is not the obligation of a school to sign off on work they cannot stand over when they have no proof that the student did it themselves. If that lad is doing applied maths, part of the terms and conditions of the coursework is that it is done under the supervision of a teacher, who is signing off to say they can authenticate the work. The student (or his parents) needed sort out an applied maths teacher when he was taking up the subject. If the school does not have an applied maths teacher, they cannot validate the project even if they wanted to. This is not the school's problem, it is the student's problem.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168520#Comment_120168520

The last sentence is actually the most important. Schools are under no obligation to facilitate or guarantee work they didn't agree to put on their curriculum and staff. I'd be very annoyed if I was insisting on checking my students work in class every day to ensure large chunks haven't magiced in and in another school a principal just signed off on something they've when they've no idea how it was made!

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168898#Comment_120168898

I don't think the point of it was to necessarily have a principal sign off so game over.

If a student can't get access to education by virtue of being homeschooled then it would follow from that court case that they are being discriminated against. But I presume the impass will stay until another court case.

I don't know of any homeschooling family who would have the appetite for a court case though...

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120172438#Comment_120172438

But this isn't about home schooling. It's about students taking subjects outside school that require teacher supervision of projects and those students (and their parents) not organising a teacher to oversee the work/ teach them on a one to one basis etc.

It doesn't even have to be an obscure subject. E.g. A student does Geography for the Leaving Cert. Meanwhile the school drops the subject and a younger sibling decides to take it outside school. They rock up with their siblings project from a few years earlier and ask for someone to sign off on 'their work'. The school no longer has a geography teacher, and the work cannot be verified as a student's own.

Right now I can buy a project for my subject on Done Deal. Students do attempt to exploit the situation, so there needs to be some sort of verification in place.

gaiscioch

I'd actually support dividing the LC exams/assessments over two years. There is no point in withholding all assessment until the end of two years. None at all. It will help the academically weaker students, who will not have to remember so much more for a massive cramming session at the end of 6th year, while also avoiding the academic dumbing down which is synonymous with "reform" of the Irish school system.

Indeed, exams in December of 5th year, and May/June of 5th year, combined with the same in 6th year would, I think, radically alter the stress culture of the LC to the benefit of all. Consistency in work would be rewarded.

As it is, I teach 5th years as if they are an exam year and it, specifically weekly exams, is very effective; by the time they come back in Sept 6th year they are superconfident. They have more than half the LC covered by the end of 5th year. By allowing them to sit their official State exams in 5th year, they are not dragging that stuff into 6th year. It's done and dusted and they have less to focus on for 6th year. That sort of balancing out of the assessment over two years rather than over two weeks (and a few projects of very dubious origins: Chatcpt, anybody? https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/01/21/breda-obrien-chatgpt-is-the-ultimate-plagiarism-tool-how-can-teachers-respond/) in 6th year is a definite improvement for work-life balance without reducing the academic standard.

Random sample

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120182506#Comment_120182506

Thats not what’s on offer though. The skills shown in paper one of English and Irish are acquired through the study of paper two material as well as through direct instruction. Students will not do as well in that exam at the end of 5th year. I think it will lead them learning essays off by heart, and maybe even hoping to repeat that exam in 6th year if their essay doesn’t turn up on the paper. Will they get results of this exam before completing 6th year? Otherwise they don’t know where they stand and may be under increased pressure.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120184286#Comment_120184286

Logistically it's all a shite show.

Usual... More questions than answers... Nothing will be done until it goes to Joe Duffy

EAD

As a geography teacher, I'd have no problem with some assessment of work in 5th Yr as it is, by and large, a fact based subject. It would not work for English where the two years are needed to allow the space for growth of expression, intellectual maturity and awareness of the world around them - all required elements of the current English course.

Treppen

Well it's back on the agenda anyway.

https://www.asti.ie/news-campaigns/latest-news/joint-statement-draft/

French Toast

For me the fact that it was canned so unceremoniously proves that we've hamsters at the wheel of the Department of Ed.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120331664#Comment_120331664

In fairness that had all the hallmarks of a solo run by one hamster in particular, let's give that hamster some initials, how about NF.

2011abc

These egotists often like to 'leave their mark' eg The Architect RQ regardless of its impact .