Golf course architects in Ireland

blue note · 19-09-2022 10:52am #1

Have people any strong thoughts on the different architects in Ireland? I started reading tom doaks book the anatomy of a golf course after playing at Patrick's. I was always a bit curious to hear an architect talk about course design and it's very interesting. Flicking around the courses in Ireland it seems to be the same names popping up again and again designing most of them. Pat ruddy has done some great work, Eddie Hackett that bit older again but seems to have his name on some superb courses. Jeff howes did a redesign of tramore when I was a member and did a great job. And I see his name pop up all the time when I'm looking at courses I'd like to play.

Then there's the big names doing one or two courses. Tom doak and Gil hanse in Donegal probably the biggest of these in recent years. Two incredible courses. And Jack's two I've never heard anyone talk about without saying they loved them. There's no higher praise than that. The artistry of golf design, and pushing boundaries in the field are extremely important. But ultimately, if the people playing it love it, you've done a great job.

And then there's the irish lads. Christy O'connor has done some fine courses (mount woseley). And some more accessible ones I understand as well. I think maccreddin is paul mcginleys only attempt so far and I thought it was terrific, even if it was too tight for me. And I think moyvalley which I played recently was a Darren Clarke course. I really enjoyed playing it. It wouldn't be at macreddins level, but I'd happily go back.

I'd love to see what padraig harrington would do in course design. It could be anything. It could be completely incredible, or it's possible he could over think it and you'd end up with crystal maze style greens.

slave1 · 19-09-2022 1:52pm

Hacket and O'Connor Jr the cream of the last probably 50yrs

Golfgraffix · 19-09-2022 2:39pm

I’m biased as we both worked together in Jeff Howes Design but imo Jeff Lynch is the top Irish Architect at the moment.

In the past year he has completed the renovations for Druids Heath and is coming to the completion of Druids Glen soon.

His new holes at Lucan opened last week and are an excellent addition to the course.

Paul Mc Ginley has a few projects on the boil and is an often overlooked designer. He would be a traditionalist in his style but hard to go wrong when he is taking inspiration from Harry Colt.

You then also have Ken Kearney and Ronan Brannigan both very good in their own right.

And of course there is Pat Ruddy, who still dips his toe in Rosses and recently did the Pollen Links short course in Ballyliffin.

There is not too much big work going on in Ireland now but I think you will see Graham Webster make some changes at Ballybunion and maybe another firm at Waterville.

I know of 3 new 18 hole projects are in planning stage, will be interesting to see if they come to be realised.

FixdePitchmark · 19-09-2022 7:31pm

I love Pat Ruddy courses - and would agree - Loved anything Christy O'Connor did.

thewobbler · 19-09-2022 8:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119638968#Comment_119638968

I’ve become less impressed with Pat Ruddy’s courses as I’ve gotten older. I now much prefer older-style courses where the emphasis is on strategy and shape. Pat’s courses tend to require too much power and too much concentration for me. They just beat me up!

I do really like Christy’s Headfort New. It’s a remarkably different course between the forward and (nearly) back tees, and such a pleasant walk. He’d some sort of a hand in Rathsallagh too, which is a layout I adore. I wasn’t so impressed with Mt Wolesley. The land there just isn’t as good I suppose.

FixdePitchmark · 19-09-2022 9:35pm

I'd love a full list of key guys and courses they did...

willabur · 20-09-2022 8:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119637764#Comment_119637764

You got a shout out on the OTB Golf Weekly in relation to this very topic. Main point of the conversation was rhat while a big name like Nicklaus is attached to the course the bulk of the work is done by a third party

FixdePitchmark · 20-09-2022 9:05am

I think Headfort New is a modern masterpiece.

I loved that Christy was doing something new for Ireland, We had enough bog standard Irish parklands and at least a more adventurous style and variety was there with Christy's stuff...

spacecoyote · 20-09-2022 9:29am

I'd imagine @Kevinmarkham or @Ally McIntosh would be able to give a good breakdown of the big names and their courses in Irish Golf Architecture

Ally McIntosh · 28-09-2022 7:06am

Depends what you mean by big names? One or two mentioned on this thread could barely classify themselves as a course designer. Darren Clarke is no more a golf course architect than any of you.

I obviously need to start getting myself out there and winning some work.

FixdePitchmark · 28-09-2022 9:16am

Ally is there any list of who did what , so we at least try educate ourselves.

Most likely very complex with so many layers of changes over the years....

28-09-2022 9:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119674440#Comment_119674440

Agreed. You get 'Names' who are paid to put their names to a project but have no real involvement in the nuts and bolts of what is involved in producing or redesigning a course.

Eddie Connaughton is another designer/architect who's name I haven't seen mentioned yet on the thread.

Ally McIntosh · 28-09-2022 10:09am

Fix,

Not sure there is a definitive list although it wouldn’t take too long to put one together for many / most Irish courses.

Darren Clarke, Mark O’Meara, Colin Montgomerie, Bernhard Langer: All these courses were designed by European Golf Design (EGD). At the time, EGD’s arrangement with the European Tour meant that most of their courses had a figurehead pro attached for publicity. Some were more interested than others. Some turned up only for project kick-off photos and on opening day. One or two hardly knew their way to the first tee.

Stan Eby designed Carton Monty and Portmarnock Links; Tim Lobb designed Carton O’Meara and Moyvalley.

Not many big-name professional golfers are actually that involved, especially when they tend to have so many other business interests; but it’s a good start to look at those that have their own design business with full time employees and little else going on. Ben Crenshaw, Mike Clayton, Geoff Ogilvy are very involved. Jack Nicklaus also had a proper interest in the discipline.

Fortunately, the world has started to recognise that professional golf course architects (rather than professional golfers) tend to produce the best courses.

El Guapo! · 28-09-2022 10:14am

For anyone interested, there was a good episode of the Rick Shiels podcast recently where they spoke to the architect who designed JCB.

It obviously barely touched the surface of what goes into designing a course but was a very interesting discussion all the same. Not something I would've normally paid much attention to but it gave me a new appreciation for course design etc. Worth a listen.

Ally McIntosh · 28-09-2022 10:19am

Robin Hiseman (the designer of JCB) is a very good friend. He works for EGD who now - thankfully - have to tie themselves less to pro golfers…

…Hence we can talk about JCB as a Robin Hiseman design rather than everyone believing it belongs to some undeserving pro golfer.

El Guapo! · 28-09-2022 10:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119675056#Comment_119675056

He came across very well on the show. I could've listened to him for hours. And his story about how he got into course design was very good.

In the podcast he did mention that Colin Montgomerie (I think) was very involved in designing a course but that others are little more than a name tied to the course and have no involvement.

tayto lover · 28-09-2022 11:15am

How do people rate Ken Kearney who is drawing up a new design for my club?

dan_ep82 · 28-09-2022 11:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119675314#Comment_119675314

He redone a few greens and holes in Ardee a couple of years ago (1,2,3,5,8 and 11)

I like what he done for the most part but feel the green complexes have a lot more slopes and undulations compared to the rest so its easy to spot the new holes.

Not a fan of the re design of the green on 3.

FixdePitchmark · 28-09-2022 11:57am

Anyone know how much Christy was involved ?

Skyfloater · 28-09-2022 12:56pm

JCB? I'm drawing a blank here.

dan_ep82 · 28-09-2022 1:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119675731#Comment_119675731

https://www.jcbgolfandcountryclub.com/

UK course

FixdePitchmark · 28-09-2022 1:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119675731#Comment_119675731

awful name ...but literally on their factory land I think .

Funny idea ...but kinda aligned with their company concept....

Rikand · 28-09-2022 1:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119674814#Comment_119674814

Connaughton is a builder, not a designer. For the love of Lord Jesus dont let him touch your course from a design point of view. He's completely out of his element and shouldn't be let do anything other than build

28-09-2022 2:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119676054#Comment_119676054

He has been involved in design or redesigns in plenty of Clubs around the Country.

thewobbler · 28-09-2022 3:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119675314#Comment_119675314

His name has popped up on signs at a few clubs I’ve revisited this year - Malone, Ardglass, Greenore - and I haven’t noted much in the way of change.

maybe he’s only getting underway with each/any but my current guess is that his work on these courses has been in the form of subtle nudges to improve strategy and help with maintenance.

Malone’a greens did feel rather undulating this time around but I sense that is also related to my plummeting skill as a putter lol.

Ally McIntosh · 28-09-2022 5:56pm

Eddie is an agronomist and designer. He is not a builder.

Just for the sake of clarity, there are two approaches to golf design: The traditional method where the designer details out all drawings and specs for a contractor to build to plan… and the design / shape method where the architect minimises detail design on the drawing board by carrying out much of the design during the build using his own team of shapers.

If someone calls themselves a designer but isn’t doing any of the above work themselves (or at least is capable of doing that work), then they’re taking liberties with the job title.