Bird watching camera, need some advice!

Kurooi

I got into bird photography just about a year ago, I got some really nice shots and been enjoying it. So far I use a bridge super zoom (Canon SX70 HS) which is easy to use and superb zoom gives great opportunities. But it's not the best quality picture, shutter is great but there isn't much in the way of assisting tracking moving targets, worst of all it only performs well in pristine weather conditions. I had to familiarise myself with basics of photography but never used a SLR/DSLR, now I want to upgrade to one.

Doing just a bit of research I think Canon EOS 5D mark iv, with a sigma lens (Sigma 150-600mm) could be the 'ideal' set. I'm sort of leaning towards Canon primarily because a family member has one and I might borrow some non-birding lens. But that's a pricey set up, the camera is about 3,200 + 1,100 for the lens I'll be looking at 4.3k to get started. It's a bit wasteful I think, I'm not tight on cash but I should probably start lower, learn a bit, explore what I like and dislike.

So I'm thinking I could get a cheaper body, with a good lens, and then upgrade the body later, see whether I really get into the deep end with photography before throwing too much money at it.

Questions:

1. Any recommendations for said camera body? Ideally a canon, something that can do bird photography well. Lets say a body under 1,500 eur?
2. Should I consider used market? Is it much trouble? I don't know cameras I'd be worried I'd buy something faulty and I couldn't even tell until it's too late.
3. Will I at a lower price point like this get better results than the SX70 HS do you think?
4. I know there is a market for used cameras, if I was to be upgrading again in the future will shops give me a decent price for my used camera? Is it a lot of fuss?

Gregor Samsa

1: I don't know Canon cameras very well, but I'd 100% go mirrorless (from any brand) instead of DSLR. Modern mirrorless cameras have way better autofocus, faster frame rates, are smaller, and neater. Check out the Canon EOS R7, just announced this summer. Up to 30 frames per second shooting (with electronic shutter, 15fps with physical shutter), the entire sensor covered in AF points (more than 600 of them) and it has bird eye AF and tracking. It's about €1700 in shops in Ireland, but seems to be out of stock at the moment (I think it actually hasn't been released in Europe yet , so they're on pre-order). E-Infinity (grey market) have it for €1569 https://www.e-infin.com/eu/item/10895/canon_eos_r7_mirrorless_digital_camera_(body_only)

Here's a video review specifically from a birding persepctive that seems very positive:

https://youtu.be/u20mEPSEw6M

Note that it's not a full frame sensor - it's APS-C - which is smaller. That can actually be an advantage in bird and nature photography, as it will give your lenses more effective reach (a 500mm lens will give you an effective view of an 800mm lens). However, it uses a different mount to the EOD 5D you mentioned, so you'd need an adapter to use the lenses your family member has (assuming they're EF lenses that they have). Also, Sigma only make lenses for the EF mount, not the R7's RF mount, so you'd need the adapter for that 150-600 lens too.

EDIT: actually, if you are thinking of getting it, check this out. Photospecialist in the Netherlands have the R7 for €1519, and they throw in a free EF-RF mount adapter. That's a really good deal. Photospecialist are a 100% legit EU seller, not grey market. They're part of a large chain of camera stores in Germany, Netherlands and Belgium. Again, it's not in stock there because it hasn't been released in Europe yet, but I'd keep an eye on this page if you are interested in that camera: https://www.photospecialist.com/canon-eos-r7-body

Speaking of lenses, no matter what you go with, I'd be aiming for a minimum of 400mm at the long end, and reaching for 600mm if you can. Birds are small and far away, so you can never have enough reach. The downside is that unless you're spending astronomical money, you'll be limited to f6.3, f6.7 or maybe even f7.1 at those kinds of lengths, so you need relatively good light (you'll run into trouble in the depths of a woodland on a dull day, for instance). A camera with good high ISO will help, as will shooting in Raw and using a de-noise plugin (like Topaz Denoise AI or DxO PureRAW 2) in post to clear up the image.

Personally, I use Sony mirrorless cameras (the A1 and the A7iii). I'd highly recommend the Sony A7iv, but it's about €2,800. Sony's autofocus is class-leading, and the lens availability from Sony, Sigma and Tamron is second to none. But you can't go wrong with Canon (or Nikon) either, just that I'm not as familiar with those models.

2 : If you wanted to go used and still have some peace of mind, you could try mpb.com - they give a 6 month warranty on everything the sell. Personally, I'm comfortable with buying grey market from either e-infinity or Panamoz. e-infinity are usually cheaper, but only give a 6 month warranty. Panamoz give a 3 year warranty and have excellent customer service. I've bought lenses from e-infinity with no hassle, but when I was getting my Sony A1 (spending 6 grand, but saving over a grand on what it would cost here), I went with Panamoz because of the warranty. I have no hesitation in recommending them even with massive purchases like that. Edit: but as I mentioned above, also check out Photospecialist. Most of the time they sell at around regular retail price, but sometimes they have crazy good deals. I got a brand new, absolutely perfect Sony 16-35 2.8 GM lens from them the other week for an absolutely amazing €1600. The usual price is €2400 (they've gone back up to that now). Even second hand it's going for €1800.

3: The SX70 HS doesn't look like a bad camera, but a good interchangeable lens camera with a decent lens will definitely give you a better experience and better, sharper photos.

4: I think most physical camera shops will let you trade in gear, but I've no idea what kind of deals they do. I've sold stuff in the past on eBay (hassle), to family members, but more recently I just sell things to mpb.com. It's an absolutely painless process. All you need is a box. They even arrange the courier to pick the gear up.

Best of luck with your decisions!

Kurooi

Thank you Gregor. That's an incredibly helpful response. That offer on the r7 does look good.

Do you think this lens would be good with it? As a starter

https://connscameras.ie/camera-lenses/canon-rf-100-400mm-f56-8-is-usm-lens/4549292186765/53649/

And given that the offer is with a free EF converter, is this lens then better than the above?

https://connscameras.ie/camera-lenses/sigma-100-400mm-f5-63-dg-os-hsm-lens-for-canon-ef/085126729547/40536/

I might genuinely pick that offer up right now just checking what lens I should start with :) If you had any recommendations at all, I was budgeting about up to 1.5k for lens.

cnocbui

Currently the best birding lens is probably the OM (Olympus) 150-400mm f4.5 combined with an OM-1. A bargain at just €7,000.

For birding, you should be spending far more on the lens than the camera.

Kurooi

Haha I'd love that but trying to keep a somewhat regular budget. I'm only starting!

Gregor Samsa

If you're looking for a budget entry to birding, the Canon RF 100-400 looks like it will be "satisfactory". On full-frame 400mm is too short for birding, but on the R7's APS-C sensor, you'll be getting a focal length equivalent of 640mm, which is much more usable. f8 at the long end is a bit of a concern - you could end up struggling in some lighting conditions. Also, with cheaper lenses you tend to need to stop down a bit to get the sharpest image, and you don't have very much leeway with f8. On the other hand, reports suggest that the AF on that lens is very good, it's easy to handle and if you go into it accepting it's compromises, it seems it will do an OK job.

The Sigma has a more respectable f6.3 at the long end, but lacks stabilisation (which can really help with hand-holding a long - both in terms of focal and physical length - lens) and I'm not sure if the focusing would be as fast as the Canon.

Unfortunately, it looks like the obvious recommendation - the Sigma 150-600MM DG OS HSM Contemporary - has a compatibility issue with the R7 relating to AF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lmjC07v8yI Which is a pity, because otherwise that's definitely the lens I'd recommend.

How about the Tamron 150-600 (€1349)? https://www.photospecialist.com/tamron-150-600mm-f-5-6-3-di-vc-usd-g2-canon-ef It seems to me to be the best "affordable" birding lens for Canon that works well with the R7. Not may reviews on YouTube, but this video spends a bit of time on it, goes though the pros and cons, and it comes out pretty good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnvuGbBKqNU.

I'm not a Canon shooter at all, so I don't know these lenses, so if I were you, I'd spend a bit of time on YouTube looking at the reviews that focus specifically on birding and nature, and for both lenses. And there are a fair few of them. But I will say from personal experience that a mediocre lens only leads to frustration when birding. It's a hard genre at the best of times: you need light, weather, the location and the birds all on your side, and that's before you've even unpacked your camera. Then it's demanding of your gear, so having your lens being the weak link is something you're best trying to avoid.

Kurooi

The tamron looks good, I will keep an eye out maybe snatch it on a deal. Reach will definitely be an issue for me to adjust to, as the HS70 has a 65x zoom, it's quite insane actually.

I ordered the R7 today :) Might have it in about 1-2 months so plenty of time to pick up lens on a deal before that.

Thank you so much Gregor! I was on the fence for months unsure what to buy, and this is a new hobby for me but genuinely the first thing I enjoyed and got into in years after focusing on work and life... So it will bring a lot of joy. You're the best!

Gregor Samsa

Cool! Hopefully it arrives early. Enjoy it when it does!