Chef's Really Like That?

Ray Palmer

I recently watch "Burnt" which showed how dedicated and focused chefs are. Of course it is a silly drama but not dissimilar to how chefs have been shown to be with obviously Gordan Ramsey being a prime example. Is it really like that in kitchens and how do they not get done for abusive behaviour by HR or labour courts?No matter where you work you certainly shouldn't have to put up with abusive behaviour and name calling.

SimpleDimple

There’s a brilliant series (it’s on YouTube) called boiling point. It follows Gordon Ramsey in his bid to get a third Michelin star. You see the level of perfection and dedication required to achieve this. I know they can seem like dictators, but I suppose the chef has a vision and they’re perfectionists themselves, so they demand that from all their staff.

Also we can take comfort in the fact that Marco Pierre White made him cry once.

dazed+confused

The HR Department, In a restaurant?

What world are you living in?

As for the labour court, what junior staff member that's busting their ass in a hot kitchen for minimum wage is organised or well financed enough to start putting a legal battle together?

Sometimes I think everyone on Boards thinks that everyone else in the world are IT professionals earning >€80k a year or Dole scroungers.

There is a huge and very really world that exists between these extremes.

ratatouille99

Chef where I work is of a very similar temperament. Being hot headed seems to be part of the job. He screams abuse at everyone, even the 16 year olds where I work. Gets away with it because he's good at the job and management are scared to lose him

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119297786#Comment_119297786

Restaurants are often in hotels and they have HR departments.

Labour court is free to bring a case.

If I saw a chef treat another human being like shown by Gordan Ramsey I would say something and probably not go there again. You don't have to abuse staff. Food ends up the same way at the end of the day.

Chefs are shown to be abusive to all staff not just minimum wage staff.

As for not knowing what the real world is like I worked as a barman for many years. When a very well known owner of a very well known bar shouted at me and gave me abuse I explained in no uncertain terms if he ever spoke to me like that again he would regret it. So he did. I casually walked away. Somehow all the beer got disconnected and some holes appeared in the beer lines when they went to reconnect them. I then decided to go home.

Bobblehats

Sickly sweet with a runny consistency I don’t like the stuff. oh wait that’s the Heinz

freshpopcorn

Back in about 2011 I studied Hospitality in an IT. We had dealing with a few chefs over the years. Some nice, strict, etc. However one guy would swear at us, say homophobic language, name calling, etc. I didn't know what to make of him. He was okay at times tough. I always felt he had had his own issues tough.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119297853#Comment_119297853

Former chef here - when I threw in my apron I was Exec Chef at a top Sydney Hotel - and although I did my damndest to not shout at people... sometimes I did. Like when a commis completely ignored very clear instructions on how to prep veg for a large wedding and created green mush. Meaning I am pulling out of driveway as wedding party pulls in rushing to shop to buy more veg. Or someone is told to 'heat' chowder and they 'boil' chowder - as VIP clients who requested chowder are being seated in restaurant.

Cheffing is a very high pressure job, up to 12 hrs a day in a literally hot environment. The 'better' the restaurant the greater the pressure. Everything had to be both perfect and NOW. People eating there don't care if the kitchen is short-staffed, people are tired, equipment has failed. They want what they pay for. As they should.

Now, none of this justifies some of the behaviour I have witnessed. There is a 'macho' culture among many male chefs - hard drinking, hard working - that is frankly toxic. This is not to say female chefs are all sweetness and light. Many are ...well... competitive bitches. They like to see their colleagues fail, are quick to pass the buck ... and lordy lord complain a lot.

To reach the top of your profession means sacrificing everything to your job. In bed at night in your mind you are planning the next day's work schedule, devising menus. Up early to get source ingredients. Weekend off - Forget that. You work so other people can enjoy a social life. Get badly cut/scalded/burnt on a regular basis. Put up with split shifts. People complaining just for the sake of it (auto- condimenters being a typical example, these are people who add salt/pepper to food before they even taste it then demand it's sent back for being overseasoned). After service there is at least another hours works cleaning the kitchen. All this for crap wages. Kick up a fuss and there is a very good possibility a good reference will not be forthcoming.

Unless you have worked in a high end kitchen you have no idea of the work and pressure to ensure 'food ends up the same way'. It is nothing like working behind a bar (yes, I did that too).

Absolutely, the macho/bitchy culture is a huge problem. Bullying is rife. Abuse can be endemic. At the end of the day the responsibility lies with the Exec/Head Chef. They set the tone and the standards. Too many of them were bullied on the way up and think acting that way is permissible, or even required. It isn't.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298069#Comment_119298069

I am under no illusions that a kitchen is not a high pressure environment. Been in many high pressured situations and you just NEVER talk to anybody like that.

Give you an example. Worked a 12 hour day trying to get something fixed, home 2 hours just going to bed and the phone rings. One of the operators ignored the instruction and started the whole system to fail. Over 500k people aren't going to get their money and it will be in the papers. Work another 6 hours repeating most of what I did earlier that day because of one person. I get this same person to check a file and they tell me it is 100% correct. I kick off the fix and go to bed. Half an hour later I get a call saying he just realised he checked the wrong file. Too late it is all destroyed and will have to start from scratch. So it is 5am I have had no sleep and if I shouted or said anything rude to that operator I would be in serious trouble. I get a few hours of sleep and start again one of the managers goes crazy and demand a written explanation of events. He gets it and when the operator comes in he starts shouting abuse at the operator. People went over and separated them and the manager was fired the next day.

It did hit the papers and usual comments on how useless IT are come up. That wasn't the bad part a friend of mine has an abusive alcoholic father and his mother won't leave him. Because he had no drink money due to delayed payments he beat her up and put her hospital for a week. I think that is more pressure than if an edible flower is placed right on a plate.

Nigel Fairservice

I spent a summer as a dish washer in a fine dining restaurant in Canada. The head chef was a lovely guy who liked to have a few laughs but never in a mean way or at someone's expense. Never raised his voice either. He is possibly one of the most laid back people I've ever met. I suppose he set the tone and it was a fun place to work. He taught me a few things about cooking along the way and would give us some great food at the end of the shift sometimes. Many people have had far worse experiences in a kitchen than I had.

anglesorangles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298069#Comment_119298069

So you have kinda said aw its okay cos we are under pressure and then aw its not okay its a bullshit culture, which is it?

fatbhoy

Watch Boiling Point too, with Stephen Graham; good film.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298270#Comment_119298270

I am simply describing the pressure experienced by chef's - not getting in a p*ssing contest.

Split shifts (which are very common) mean start around 10 (H.C. will often be much earlier) and work until after lunch service (which depends on when last lunch order came in), break until evening shift starts around 6 and runs until kitchen is cleaned after last orders. Around 11 is usual but can run later thanks to the old last order is well done something or other. In a hotel there may be weddings so no break in middle of day. It's 10 - closing. That's pretty much every weekend in Summer. This is the norm. Not oh s*it something went wrong. When something goes wrong the hours increase - staff shortage, equipment failure, people with bookings turning up late...

A small kitchen brigade is stuck with each other for around 12 hours a day, 5 days a week, in a pressurised work environment where injuries are everyday so tempers flare. Due to the way kitchen brigades are structured the Head Chef is an absolute monarch. An absolute monarch responsible for every dish sent out from every station, ordering, stock control, staffing, costings, menus... and sometimes going into the restaurant to smile and shakes hands with VIPs when all you want to do is go home and see your family...

The Head Chef sets the standard. Unfortunately thanks to the cult of the celebrity chef the sweary, shouty, abusive, macho image has become the industry standard as 'top chef'. Most of these guys haven't worked a full shift in a kitchen in years tbh, but by the way they act on tv (and it is often acting) they help foster a toxic work environment in the industry. Many of them were faaaar worse in reality.

I am in no way justifying obnoxious behaviour. And never tolerated it in my kitchen. I have sacked people on the spot for being drunk, sexual harassment, and homophobic abuse. But I will also admit there were a occasions when I lost my temper and FFS shouty happened.

dorothylives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298462#Comment_119298462

It's a highly competitive highly pressured enviornment, not for the fainthearted. I don't think that poster said it was OK. Anyone going into that line of work would know what it's like. It's often a toxic environment.

dorothylives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298270#Comment_119298270

I'm glad that you never speak to people like that, but many do. It's not OK but it is what it is.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298462#Comment_119298462

Where did I say it was ok?

I didn't.

I described the 'normal' working environment which is frankly crap from beginning to end. Crap because people want good food but not to pay for it so wages are the first thing hit, staffing levels next. People want their food NOW - and get pretty damn obnoxious when displeased. Chefs don't get tips. But chefs do get shouted at by front of house staff when a customer complains. It's a pressure cooker workplace. And that is why there is a chef shortage. Couldn't pay me enough to go back to that - and I was on the top of the salary scale, which tbh wasn't that great considering the hours and responsibility. I retrained and my first job (with set hours, no weekends, no shouty anyone) paid me the same.

It's crap.

Customers shout at front of house for a verity of bullshit reasons.

Front of house shouts at Head Chef.

Head chef shouts at kitchen brigade.

TV celebrates shouty, boorish, obnoxious Head Chefs.

To answer the OP no-not all chef's are like that. But the utterly driven, obsessive, often are - and they are the one's we make celebrities out of.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298430#Comment_119298430

Exactly.

Some fantastic Head Chef's out there. But we don't tend to see them on TV as it doesn't make for 'great telly'.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298613#Comment_119298613

And they get fired for doing so. The question is how chefs aren't fired for the behaviour. The same applies to anywhere where such behaviour is tolerated. I won't be spoken to like that and have complained to owners/mangers when I saw staff being mistreated. It is only acceptable if everyone accepts it. I wouldn't and won't

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298695#Comment_119298695

The question was kind of 2 fold, are they like this and how do they not get in trouble for it? You have said you have fired people for it so there is some element of responsibility

BTW A customer is never right? I have been given food that was frozen in the middle and the chef came out to berate me for returning it. He then flipped out at me when he realised i was right then ran back into the kitchen screaming. Staff all apologies and chef insisted he would prepare it correctly. The new meal comes out and exactly the same. Staff looked petrified when I told them and effectively tried to get me to leave before the dish was returned. It wasn't a cheap place and didn't last long. It was quiet clear the food was not freshly prepared as stated and somebody had not defrosted them in time for the cooking they did later. I didn't have to pay but did have to go somewhere else to eat even though my wife had eaten.

NedsNotDead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299007#Comment_119299007

Ray. None of this actually happened. You're just trying to stir up a row as usual

BattleCorp

I worked in a large hotel for about 3 years. Big turnover of chefs and I think I've only met one that I would consider 'normal'. You have to be a bit mad to be a chef.

Here's some of the things that happened. It was years ago so I'm sure I forget much of what happened. I got great enjoyment out of most of the shennanigans to be honest. I'd a good relationship with many of the chefs, even though they were crazy fcukers.

1. Nearly every chef bar 1 or 2 screamed and shouted pretty much throughout their shifts.
2. One chef robbed the hotel safe one night.
3. Several times chefs were still drunk doing breakfast shift, and I mean very drunk. Dangerously drunk in a kitchen. I put one chef to bed in room 101 at 3am when he came back to the hotel drunk to start the breakfast. Woke him again at 6.30am. I started the breakfast myself that day even though it wasn't my job.
4. Chef cut thong strap of female commis chef bending over when her thong was exposed.
5. Chef in trouble for calling girl with hearing aids 'Helen Keller'.
6. Chef told female chef to put a cork in it when she had to go to the bathroom regularly during her 'time of the month'.
7. Chef sent out cold food to a wedding. Swore he flashed every single dinner to warm it up. He didn't.
8. Chef sent out dinner with plastic in it. Got in row with customer and tried to convince them that it was piece of cabbage. It wasn't a piece of cabbage.
9. I was walking down the hall carrying a tray of food when the chef stuck his head out the kitchen door behind me and shouted "Holy sh1t, there's coons everywhere". He then ducked back into the kitchen. Guess the colour of most of the people in the hall? Guess who they thought shouted that? Ba5tard chef. 😀
10. Too many more stories.......

Anyway, chefs are mad. 😁

Next week I'll do stories about blocklayers. 😁

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299053#Comment_119299053

Oh how sad are you

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299053#Comment_119299053

You're wrong, it happened in his head, Ray has a lot of problems with people he pays to provide services to him, he could do with living in the real world, I have and still have plenty abuse given and thrown at me from people I work with, we get over it in minutes and learn to move on,it goes with the job, if we went to court everytime someone got a good fcukin out of it there would be no one at work and all have a court date to tell the judge about how someone hurt out feelings, Ray could do with a month with a couple of blocklayers in the middle of January to realign his very innocent view of the world

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299390#Comment_119299390

Good to know you guys are keeping tabs on me. Can you tell me what I ate last night?

You want to work in and be part of a toxic environment have at it. I won't have to put up with it. If you are providing a service to me you will treat everyone with respect.

Yeah you live in hope that I somehow end up working on a building site so I get some social justice from proper hard working men. I don't work on a building site because I decided I didn't want to so didn't become a civil engineer. I am also quite handy and do a lot of DIY

I know people like you who are quick to anger and yell at people. Completely incapable of interact with people like a civilized person when not in work too. I am guessing you have been escorted out of lots of places

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299461#Comment_119299461

It's far from a toxic environment I'm working in (another silly made up saying) it's quite the opposite as we all get on really well but when someone is being a fcukin idiot or makes a cock up we all let each other know and it's all fine shortly after, we're able to deal with it without the need to resort to someone else fighting our battles or going online about it, a lot of jobs are outside the bounds of what we'll call 'office politeness' just because someone doesn't understand it doesn't mean its wrong.

I'm not quick to anger, there's a difference between being angry and using language that everyone understands, you're mixing up being angry and getting a point across, as for being escorted out of premises, I've no idea what point you're trying to make but I've been a very good patron of many establishments and never once asked to leave, interesting train of thought tho

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299517#Comment_119299517

Somehow I don't believe a person who is effectively stalking me on threads because they didn't like my views on another subject. That is an angry person who can't let something go. You don't need to raise your voice and say abusive things to get a point across. You want to live like that so have at it but just leave me out of it and there is no point stalking me anymore.

dorothylives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298739#Comment_119298739

Whose arguing with you? It is what it is, nobody is trying to justify it. Well done you for complaining. The thing about the hospitality industry is that chefs are like gold dust and they can make or break a places reputation, even if the food is awful. It got really bad when chefs became celebrities just like when DJ's became celebrities. Kitchen staff were a dime a dozen, not any more, but push comes to shove the chef is staying and the underlings are going.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299633#Comment_119299633

Read the thread and you will see people arguing that shouting and screaming at somebody in work is acceptable. People literally are justifying it. I can see why they allow it to keep a chef but it is toxic. I worked with a developer that was extremely abusive but he had all the knowledge so they couldn't fire him. One guy working there kept a list of all the people who left since he joined and had separate list for those who left because of that developer. The company paid out a lot of people myself included rather than fire him. Instead of people quitting they were made redundant so the company could give them cash to shut up. One guy took the money and filed a case anyway and got double the money. They eventually just sort of locked the developer away in a room and only had one person speak to him.

We all knew he had booby trapped the system in case he got fired because developers found several pieces of code designed for that purpose.

NedsNotDead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299692#Comment_119299692

And yet I can think of a number of threads where you've proudly proclaimed how you've let Tradesman have it that haven't measured up to your exacting standards.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299725#Comment_119299725

And cut the beer lines and disconnected the beer, criminal damage is acceptable it seems but someone saying mean words is a big nono in case someone hurts poor Ray's feelings, the duplicity is astounding

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299725#Comment_119299725

For lying and trying to cheat me I will stand up for myself and make no apologies for it

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299777#Comment_119299777

No he disrespected me and never got to do it again was my solution.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299815#Comment_119299815

Youre a sad man, you should stand your ground instead of sneaky cowardly tactics, respect is earned, you obviously did nothing to earn it

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299831#Comment_119299831

No respect is given and deducted based on behaviour. I hit him where it hurt him and cost him his precious money. The guy was the biggest a-hole and a massive tax cheat. You think you have it all sorted in work and everybody takes the abuse with no repercussions. I would suggest you watch what you eat and drink in work because if you are abusive like you say somebody could easily be having their revenge on you.

I did stand my ground I told him I would not accept any more abuse from him and he would regret if he did it again. He certainly did regret it I am a man of my word. You can knock off the personal abuse

NedsNotDead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299803#Comment_119299803

But it was only your word that they lied and cheated you. Based on your Walter Mittey posts i have my doubts

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299881#Comment_119299881

I make my own food, who do you think makes it for me lol

Thelonious Monk

I worked in a few kitchens and never had any problems with chefs. If you don't f*ck up and you're a hard worker they'll respect you, it's very hard to get decent kitchen staff in all stations.

It's a tough environment and I would never go back to it but at the same time I probably enjoyed it more than any other jobs I've had in my life.

Lends itself to booze/drugs also, tough old life.

rob316

Ask 4 of your friends over, cook them all different meals from scratch and serve them at the same time. See how stressed you are

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119300381#Comment_119300381

Why does it lend itself to booze/drugs?

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299007#Comment_119299007

I'm not sure why I am being graced with these anecdotes tbh, as I never said the things that seem to incite you to quote me while sharing them.

In my very first post on this I said "People eating there don't care if the kitchen is short-staffed, people are tired, equipment has failed. They want what they pay for. As they should." - see that last sentence? It mean customers should get what they pay for.

'They' don't get in trouble for it because 'we' as a society want the bad boy shouty chefs. 'We' reward them with fame. 'We' put them on a pedestal and let them they set the standard. 'We' watch TV shows where chefs shout, where chefs are put under huge pressure to produce perfect dishes - seeing them panic, sweat, obsess is all part of the entertainment package. What isn't considered is that pressure is there for every single plate sent out in a high end restaurant. Every single night.

'We' want shouty chefs obsessing over our food - but 'we' shake our heads when they behave badly.