What option do I have to build in land zoned as agricultural

spupazza

Hi, me and my family are looking to move away from Dublin and possibly relocate down in Wexford/Waterford areas, in the countryside.

For multiple reasons, we would prefer to buy a site (as large as we can afford, at least as big as 1 acre), and build a house tailored to our needs. We are not professional farmers, but we would love to grow most of the vegetable and fruits we eat on the land we cultivated. We would love if it may develop over the years on a business, but for the moment we will be doing something completely different as main profession (we both have IT jobs that we can mostly perform while working remotely).

I understand getting planning permission is not easy, and actually it may reveal to be impossible on land zoned as 'agricultural'. I have a few questions and I would appreciate if any of them could be answered:

1- On this link: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/54f5f187db8c45008438a9fd50ec57e7/print I can find the zoning map of Waterford county. Mostly only urban areas are categorized. Should I assumed that any land that is not categorised is by default agricultural land?

2-Am I more likely to get a permission to build my house on agricultural land, if I buy the a site and start a business? Would intention to start a business suffice or should the farming business be already existing and operating? If the latter it true, should have been operating for a minimum period before I can get the permission to build a dwelling granted?

3-Is there anything I can do in the planning phase that can increase my chances to have the permission granted? Example: bungalow are more likely to be built than 2-storey houses? Are certain type of building materials more favoured than others? For convenience we got an interest in modular/prefab homes, as they're built faster and the final cost is more predictable. In particular we looked at:

A-Scandinavian homes: https://www.scanhome.ie My understading is that they are done completely with wood.

B-Buildwirght: https://buildwright.ie/pre-designs/ My udnerstanding is that they are built with cement.

Where the council has among the objective to keep the scenery intact, would one type over the other matter?

Not building a driverway, would increase my chances? Any other suggestions?

4-How likely do you think it would be if we buy a piece of agricultural land in this area in Wexford co.?Anything we could do to increase our chances?

Where can I find the current development zoning for the area circled in red in the picture below?

wex.png

5-Between Wexford and Waterford where would we have more chances to build our home on agricultural land? (which council is less restrictive with rules and in practice, if you had any experience)

6-If we apply and we get as response that local needs apply, do you think an appeal based on the fact that the 'local need' principle is discriminatory and against the EU law as indicated here: https://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.org/36-papers-today/planning/9930- would have good chances to succeed?

mike_2009

Get a hold of the county development plan and have a read. Then you should talk to the planners themselves on a broad basis about areas they are keen to redevelop and see if any locations are of interest. These are likely to be in towns and NOT out in the country. The one off house on the hill time is gone unless you know who to pass the brown envelope to?! Chat to locals around the area and keep an eye out for new builds / planning permissions to see what's being granted, appeal letters etc.

Local Needs has been going on for years. This Gov will continue to kick that can down the road.....

Maybe talk to a local TD for advice?

Timber only houses - expect insurance hike as it's non standard at around 1200 a year vs 350 for concrete block. There's only 2 insurers left in Ireland that do cover for it. Love Scanhome but even getting build insurance they ask about the type of construction very carefully these days!

RIAI have an open door ask an architect scheme in May each year for charity but you could ring a few to gauge their views also, look at planning permissions granted for architect names and see if you like their style or not?

I think you'll have a very uphill battle trying to get Agricultural land re-zoned without ties to the land etc. That's why trying to build in a town is more likely to succeed. Best of luck!

Donald Trump

Unless Wexford is different to the rest of the country, you will likely need to buy an existing house if you want to live in the countryside. You can buy a small, or even derelict one, and try to do it up if you want.

You might think that you have spotted a "loophole" that nobody else ever thought of - namely to buy an acre and build a nice big new house cheaply rather than buy a house in a town, but the reason people don't do that is because they generally can't.

People likely won't sell a site to you "subject to planning" because you don't have a hope of getting planning. You'd only be wasting their time. So you're not going to be able to buy a random acre somewhere. You'd likely have to try to buy a small block of land, pay the 7.5% stamp duty, and then when you fail to get permission, sell it on again.

"Local needs" are there for a reason. One-off houses are not allowed anymore except on an exceptional basis if you can prove why you need one there in that location. Many people who grew up in an area and help out their parents on their farms etc. cannot get permission as it is. If enough eejits kick up about it, it will just mean that they will try to remove it for the rest of the people who genuinely need it. It won't result in the general public being allowed to build. It will just remove it from everyone. That might make you happy from a begrudgery perspective, but remember that it will increase the competition for any existing stock, which will put up the price for you if you do want to buy a house in the country, and if you buy some, and live there, if you have children then they will have lost their ability to build in the future.

If the EU want to remove local needs or historical connection as a criteria for planning permission then they will eventually have to do it for everything. That would mean for example, that a "local" from the "traditional" inner city communities in Dublin would have no more right to social housing in D1 or D2 than a random person living in Ballygobackward in Co. Muck who has never even visited Dublin but just decided that they want to add themselves to the list for a flat there in case they might want to live there in 10 years when they get to the top of the list. Similarly, a person in rural Poland who can't speak English but who might like to come to live in Dublin in 10 years should be able to plonk themselves on that same list. Currently you are supposed to be already living in an area in order to be granted social housing there. Having to live in inner city Dublin before being granted social housing is equally as discriminatory to an EU citizen who grew up outside Ireland as not allowing them to build random houses in the countryside. I am sure that many other EU countries also have similar schemes and supports which have preferences for already local people.

spupazza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119304779#Comment_119304779

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119304989#Comment_119304989

I'd like to thank both for your advice.

So I should avoid timber framed house. Didn't know about the difference of cost with the insurer.

In relation to buy the land, I'm not looking to buy 1 acre plot (won't be enough to start a farming business). I'm looking to buy a plot 10< acres.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119306147#Comment_119306147

There was a case recently where the High Court overturned a refusal by An Bord Pleanala to grant permission to a small farmer in Wicklow. I don't know what happened to it in the end, but the court basically told them to go back and look at it again. I don't think that the court granted the permission. In that case, it was a small organic horticultural business, but it was viable and was his full time work and he had Teagasc on his side. The Council/ABP conceded that it was indeed viable.

In another case there recently, some daughter of a "farmer" in South Co. Dublin was appealing a refusal of permission. I can't remember if I read how that one ended up. She was refused permission by the Council, then ABP, and then went to court. It didn't sound like she was genuinely needed at that "farm" as I think it was more like a few acres that they allowed a few horses to run across. I could be misremembering.

You could buy land and apply and just be lucky! If you buy with a derelict house on it, that is still a house, you would be more or less guaranteed to be allowed to renovate/extend. But you'd probably have to incorporate the existing structure. It would also cost a fair but more because of that "guarantee"

looksee

No matter how big a piece of agricultural land you buy, if it doesn't already have a house on it you are not going to get permission to build one. In fact proposing a business could make it harder rather than easier. Waterford Co. Co. Planning are very stubborn, or at least they were 3 years ago when I was looking, we found Tipp more accommodating. I don't know about Wexford.

Even then, if its agricultural land you need to buy a site with a house already on it. Beware of 'derelict' houses, if the last use was not as a home - rather than as a hay barn or store or for animals, you won't get permission, and there has to be a fairly substantial amount of building to count as a viable house.

And even if that works, if there is no safe road access (visibility lines) or there is any danger of flooding, or the land isn't suitable for a water treatment unit (though that is easier to work around now, if more expensive) you will find it hard to get planning. And don't underestimate how expensive it is to get esb to a rural house if there is none actually going past the gate.

spupazza

From the Kilkenny's Co. development plan: https://www.kilkennycoco.ie/eng/services/planning/development-plans/city-and-county-development-plan/vol1-master-ccdp-2-11-2021.pdf

I have circled in red what's defined in the plan as Waterford 'Metropolitan Area Strategic Plan'.

I'm trying to get an understanding of the plan. Do you think it should be easy to obtain permission if I manage to buy some land within this area?

(the area circled in red)

sportsfan90

I don't know about specific parts of the country so I can't help you there. But I am from a rural area myself and as another poster mentioned, even people who are going full time farming are finding it difficult to get planning permission on their own land that they've grown up on. It seems to have gotten much more strict in the last 2-3 years too at least where I'm from.

By the sounds of it, the few acres you hope to buy would be more of a hobby farm for growing food for yourself rather than a farming business and making a living from it. I'm not sure that'll be enough to satisfy the "need" to build a house there.

Your best bet is to find an old house and hope to get permission to upgrade it. You might be able to demolish and start from scratch to a house of your liking but that's not guaranteed either I would think.

looksee

With regard to your question about the map, it seems more likely since it is a metropolitan area, but honestly you need to watch Daft.ie and similar to find land for sale, then see does it fit into likely building permissions. A decent sized piece of land that is zoned for building is going to be very (eyewateringly) expensive. And you may have the opposite problem, if the coco want housing in an area they may not give permission for a single house and farm. Find land (with a building already on it) first, get out the county plans, the planning records for the area, Land Direct and the OSI maps, including historical maps and flood plains etc, and then if it looks feasible arrange a preliminary meeting with the Planning Office.

spupazza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119306429#Comment_119306429

Yes, he idea is to buy between 10-20 acres to start with and do it as second job. The plan is to see first if is viable and if I really want to do it full time (dreaming about doing something and actually doing it are 2 different things, so until I start doing it I can't quit my job).

spupazza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119306623#Comment_119306623

In relation to arranging a preliminary meeting with the Planning Office, do I need to own the land to get a meeting? Does it cost anything? If so how much would it cost?

sportsfan90

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119307133#Comment_119307133

Have you any background in agriculture OP? I think you'd be doing extremely well to make any sort of living off 20 acres and I'd be amazed if they'd grant permission to someone who plans to see how it goes first in terms of it's viability.

Also have you checked the going price for agricultural land in the area you're interested in? Around me it's around €20k an acre, although that would be above average.

Edit: Doing the Green Cert might improve your chances.

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119307141#Comment_119307141

The preliminary meeting will not guarantee that you will get planning, only whether there are any obvious reasons why you would not.

No you don't need to own the land, but I think (I may be mistaken here, I can't remember) that you have to have some sort of permission from the land owner to discuss it. It doesn't cost anything but it does take a while to arrange so you would want to be seriously interested in a piece of land and have an agreement with the seller to give you time to make the enquiries. Some Planning offices do a kind of walk in open house arrangement, others do an appointment system, which can take a couple of months I think. You need to go in with the appropriate forms all filled in and all the information and questions lined up. Its a while since I did it so I am a bit hazy, but its a very good idea.

If you learn enough about the planning process you can make a fair guess at whether planning is likely before specifically asking. You can also employ a planning consultant - who can be very useful as they have more detailed knowledge than a lot of architects in terms of planning. (well, in terms of a lot of things, some architects can be hit and miss in terms of knowledge of planning, building regs, etc.)

spupazza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119307161#Comment_119307161

No I don't have experience as a farmer. That's why I intend to try it first. In my life I have always being cautious and taken the safest path. For once I want to take some risk (to some extent as I have 5 small children), be a bit selfish and do something I like.

It's a long term project (if successful). I don't plan to make a living on less than 20 for now (if successful to plan is to make a living within 10 years and I plan to buy additional land and also diversify it it's working), but the plan is not to to be dairy farmer. I plan to grow vegetables which may potentially produce way more revenues per acre. Thanks a lot for the Green Cert tip.

About the price of the land there are farms being sold for 10k per acre of even less.

mike_2009

Have you already tried a local allotment and met some leaders in that area? They run introductory courses from time to time to link you up with an expert and help encourage each other. Might be a good base to include/start from?

Ubbquittious

I have good hope that Sinn Fein once they get in will lift the rural housing kibosh and we'll be free once more !

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119643373#Comment_119643373

they absolutely will not, and its laughable that you think the either want to or can :D

people dont realise that the only alternative to the "local needs" rule is a blanket ban for everyone.

cnocbui

Do not build anything of wood in this country. I ignored that priciple and built a garden office from a kit made in Finland and used a highly regarded timber finish, Sikkens, and slaters have essentially just eaten the lower half metre.

Look for a block of land that has existing planning permission, or buy an established home, those are your only two options given how this country thinks.

I live in a rural location in a one off with a fibre connection. In the past 20 years, only about 6 houses have been built on or near the road I live on and it's beyond any doubt that the original land owners somehow managed to get planning permission for their children to live near bye and some of those then on sold the land with planning.

You need to lose the idea you will be able to build what you want, you will be constrained to what others have built or what others have planning permisson for.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119643373#Comment_119643373

The only hope for rural housing is if some very rich person drags this country to the European court and challenges the local needs planning shi​te as being contrary to the principles of the EU on free movement of people and the right to work. There is unquestionably also a case to be made that local needs is a breach of human rights law as well.

Article 14: Protection from discrimination

"The Human Rights Act makes it illegal to discriminate on a wide range of grounds including ‘sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birtrnment h or other status’."

The EU has already had a go at the Irish government on this but seems to have either dropped it or lacks the motivation to pursue it: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/state-defends-local-needs-planning-rules-to-avert-eu-action-1.972486

I think it only a matter of time until someone manages to motivate the EU to see to this country on this issue.

looksee

Slaters/woodlice do not eat good wood, they only feed on damp and decaying material including wood. If your shed is destroyed it is because it was either not properly treated and/or did not have enough air circulation to keep the timber dry. Once it started to rot the woodlice would be happy to finish the job.

CreadanLady

OP, if you think you are going to come and buy 20 arces and have it as a viable second job without ever having had any experience or background in farming, I can tell you something, you are in for a rude awakening.

Farms of 200 acres are barely viable these days, when run by people who grew up knowing nothing but farming, and the only thing that makes it any way bearable financially is CAP subsidies from the EU. The sale of produce is not even nearly enough to cover cost. Most of the time the only purpose the actual produce serves is that you have to have some minimum level of produce to justify being eligible for grants and subsidies.

And without a Greencert qualification, as a new farmer you won't qualify for nada.

The whole thing is a city slickers pipe dream.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679258#Comment_119679258

Well by the same nonsense, it is equally discriminatory that Dublin City Council restricts entry onto its social housing lists to the tiny tiny proportion of EU citizens that have a connection to an area

https://www.dublincity.ie/residential/housing/i-am-looking-home/i-want-apply-council-home

Why can't, say, a random Bulgarian who has never left their country, not be allowed to just apply to DCC when they turn 18 and move over whenever they get the free house? The salary limits for a council house are 35k. Average salary in Bulgaria is about 10k............... I can't for the life of me see any potential downsides in allowing potentially hundreds of millions of people to add their names to the queue...........