29 Month Old will not go to sleep alone

pipelaser

My partner and I have a 29 month old(girl) and 5 month old(boy). The girl's language is quite advanced for her age and she is quite social, but strong minded and like most 2 year olds is quite stubborn. We have always had issues getting her to sleep, she currently naps for about 2 hours in the afternoon and falls asleep straight away, the majority of the time without fuss.

She has a fixed bedtime routine of bath and three stories. After this she screams for more, for the toilet, for a cracker and has a meltdown if I leave the room. We are concerned about leaving her alone to scream or cry herself to sleep and the effects this might have on her, however we need an hour or so together in the evenings and sleep ourselves. We have tried: aromatherapy, a storyteller player, a toy to sleep with, books for her to read on her own, relaxing music, "just popping to the toilet and i'll come back" but she sees through it all. Up to this point, I have been lying on the floor in the room until she falls asleep and my partner will come and get me/wake me when she is going to bed.

When she does nod off she is generally a very good sleeper. She does sometimes have night terrors but they appear to be less frequent I'm the last two months.

Generally we put her in the bath at 7:15pm, out of the bath by 8pm and in the cot. I try to leave the room by 8:30pm after the stories, but that's when the screaming and the attempts to convince us to stay. She wakes up almost routinely at 6:30am.

Just wondering if this is common at this age and if anyone has successfully managed to get their child to go to bed. Is is possible that she just doesn't need this amount of sleep? She only ever really falls asleep at 9:30pm.

shesty

What time is her nap?

Sounds like it is time to start shortening it or getting rid of it.When they start not sleeping til 9.30pm, it's a sure enough sign.

Big Bag of Chips

If she generally falls asleep about 9:30 then you're only torturing yourselves trying to stick to a bedtime routine 2 hours earlier. Kids go through phases. "Routines" are great in theory but don't always work in practice. A routine that worked 6 months ago is unlikely to still work 6 months later. At that age children are growing and changing so much so "routines" are always adjusting. Do you put her down for a nap in the middle of the day, or does she fall asleep herself? I'd start to cut out the nap. If she's tired leave her fall asleep on the couch for a while. She might go a day or two of skipping the nap and then be exhausted on day 3. Let her nap then if she needs it. She's only 2 and a half. She's still very very much a baby. She might not like the idea of being left alone in her room. That's pretty natural.

Try changing bedtime. Try dropping the 2 hour nap. Try remember this is just a phase!

pipelaser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119282190#Comment_119282190

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119282257#Comment_119282257

She goes to nursery 4 days a week and naps on a playmat there(they tell us that this is for two hours). On Fridays, and at the weekend we put her in her cot for a two hour a nap. Generally, the nap starts around 12:30pm but no later than 1:30pm. She wakes up in a pretty crabby mood for an hour!

2 fast

Don't put her down for the nap when she's not in creche and see if it makes a difference. Then just tell then in creche that she doesn't need 2 hrs. You've tried everything else this I'd worth a go.

Cyrus

A kid that age should be going to bed by 7 really, you are starting with a bath at 7.15. Maybe drop the bath, there is no need to be bathing kids every night and start bed time earlier. Few stories and then leave. Don’t got back in for 5 min, go back to reassure her and leave again for 5 min keep doing that until she settles down. She will go mad for a bit and it might take a couple of evenings but she will get used to it. Ideally she should be going to sleep by 8.30.

and while I wouldn’t want her napping too late a child of that age definitely still needs a nap and will for some time to come.

Wheety

I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong but I'll tell you what works for us. Our girl is 31 months now.

We used Lucy Wolfe's book at the start. As said above leaving and checking back to resettle is what we did. Lucy has times you should do this but you'll get it yourself. I think you leave a longer gap as the night goes on. Even if they're crying. Then you only go in to settle them again and leave. You shouldn't be doing much talking while you're doing this. You don't want to stimulate them.

She has a nap some days, usually Saturday and Sunday when at home with us but only some days during the week when she's with her Grandparents. We tend to get her down around 1pm and won't let her sleep past 3pm.

We start getting her ready for bed around 6:30pm, brushing her teeth and changing her etc. She only has a bath on Saturday night at 6pm and then we try and stick to the same routine as above. She tends to be hyper after her bath.

She's usually in bed by 6:50pm and I'll read her a couple of stories. I've cut it down from 3 or 4 as it's too much. 1 longish book or 2 short ones and that's it. Even if she's begging for more. They'll do anything to extend the time you stay in there with them. I try to be out by 7pm but it's usually a little bit after. She'll sing and talk to herself for a while before falling asleep. This can be after 8pm most nights but at least we're not in there with her and can watch a bit of tv and have dinner.

She wakes around 7am.

She'd be the same as your little girl, great speech and social skills. Also very stubborn so we have to be tough with her sometimes. I have a battle of wills with her most nights. Sometimes I'll just have to grab her, kicking and screaming to the bathroom to brush her teeth. She wants to do anything else but get ready for bed. I've caught her out a few times with her crying at this time by making her laugh.

I think it's possible your girl might not be getting enough sleep. It sounds counter productive but the more tired they are the worst they are for falling asleep/staying asleep. When our's has a good nap she then has a good night's sleep. Conversely when she doesn't have a nap it takes her longer to fall asleep and she will probably wake up during the night. They need 12-14 hours a day at that age.

pipelaser

Thanks for all your replies. They're really helpful. For us I don't think that starting the routine any earlier is realistic because of the younger child we have(my partner stays at home, does the nursery run to pick up our eldest, cooks dinner). I only get home from work at 6:45pm for a quick dinner and then do the bath for both kids and the youngest is then put to bed my my partner. I think that our best shot is to explain to her that there will be a change(in 2 year old terms) and go back in the after 5 mins and taper our to 10 mins etc. and hopefully she gets the idea.

shesty

Two of my 3 gave up the nap round 2 and 6 mths - 2 and 8 mths.Now it was a slow burner.The nap went to every second day...then it went to only during the 4 days they were the minder, and not on weekends or only at weekends and not at the minders.Alsp had a phase of waking them after 1&1/2 hours too.My eldest dropped the nap round age 3, but her way of dealing was wake up earlier and earlier!!(eventually when she also wouldn't go to sleep til after 9 at night we took the hint).

No sleep after 2.30/3pm.Definitely cut that out, and wake her if she is still asleep then.

There will be a few weeks of juggling but I'd say you are heading into a transition phase and once you get the nap balance right, bedtime will probably settle a lot.

Edit to say you may find bedtime needs to shift forward a little for a while once the nap goes.Best to trial this at weekends when you are not under pressure after work.

fits

yes it sounds like she’s just not tired at bedtime. You could go with it and move bedtime later or try shorten nap. I’d stay with her if she needs you while falling asleep - she’s still tiny. But I know it is frustrating when they don’t fall asleep quickly. Don’t worry about creating bad habits or anything.

SmallgirlBigcity

Our son is 2 years and 8 months old and he has a pretty solid bedtime routine. He watches a show like Peppa or Bing for 15 mins at 6.45pm. Then we read a book on the couch. Then up for the bath. After bath, straight into his room to put on his Pjs and we might tell a little story to him that we make up and into his cot. He generally falls asleep at about 8pm. He might lie there or sit there with his eyes open but no giving out.

We did a gentle sleep training method when he was about 8 months old. It involved leaving him in the cot to fall asleep by himself. He cried the first night for about 30 mins. We went in and out every 5 mins to reassure him and left again. That really helped him to fall asleep on his own. Note that I still breastfed him in the middle of the night for a few months after that. The aim of the sleep training for us was to get him to fall asleep on his own.

I noticed that you tried everything, such as story player etc. I think consistency is key. So do the exact same thing every night and don't change it. We plan to change our son from the cot to a bed when he's 3 so his amazing behaviour at bedtime might change then!

Id recommend explaining to her that you're not going to stay with her until she falls asleep anymore. But you'll be just downstairs and you'll come check on her when she's asleep. If she's super upset, you could go in every 5 or 10 mins to reassure her that everything is okay and she needs to go asleep. I'd keep the visits in and out very brief and to the point. Best of luck, hope this helps!

SmallgirlBigcity

By the way, our son still naps for 2 hours during the day as well. I think naps are quite necessary at this age but all kids are different too. You could skip her nap and see how she copes. If she's very cranky and tired from it, maybe don't take away the nap just yet. It sounds to me that she needs to learn to fall asleep herself rather than shes not tired enough.

fits

Why is everyone obsessed with getting tiny babies to sleep on their own before they are ready? They will all do this in their own time. You don’t need to abandon them while upset and crying to ‘ train’ them. Gentle my arse.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119300795#Comment_119300795

Because you don’t want to end up with a 6 year old that still needs a parent in their bed at night id imagine.

fits

I’m watching the uk fiasco on tv with twin five year olds asleep in bed upstairs. And one has special needs. No sleep training needed.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119300988#Comment_119300988

Good for you, mine are asleep as well since before 8, my neighbors are still running around outside and when they do go to bed it’s musical chairs time as to who ends up where during the night, wouldn’t be for me.

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119301024#Comment_119301024

To be fair that sounds more like an issue around routine than anything else.

Big Bag of Chips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119300974#Comment_119300974

I had a 3 year old who liked (not needed) someone to fall asleep beside him for a while. So we put him in a double bed and I slept beside him for a while until he grew out of it. They're still babies. They're still tiny. They'll eventually grow out of it. Maybe at 3, maybe at 6. One thing that is certain is every stage is a phase.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119301094#Comment_119301094

Of course it is, most things are with kids , the thing is they don’t know anything so they need to be taught or shown, being able to settle themselves to sleep is a good thing for everyone, generally the more uninterrupted sleep kids and parents have the better they all get along.

each to their own but I like to spend time with my wife in the evenings after the kids are down not have one of us stuck sleeping beside a child because they haven’t been taught how to get themselves to sleep.

the poster saying they might grow out of it at 3 or maybe 6, 3 years is a long time to be dealing with that carry on that’s for sure!

fits

Good mental health in an infant is a foundation for good mental health throughout life. When a baby is crying they are signalling in the only way they can that they need you. Any kind of sleep training seems to involve ignoring them when they are crying

I’m all for children going to sleep on their own when they are ready and happy to do so. And they all will if supported and made to feel secure.

Big Bag of Chips

Well, my fella grew out of it after about 6 months. So he wasn't still looking for someone to sleep with him at 6. But every child is different. Every personality is different and what might work for 1 family, with 1 child mightn't work with another. Even siblings will be different people.

Do what works for your family. Regardless of "routines" or "techniques" or books written by "experts". You're the expert on your child. Find what works, and doesn't work in your own family setup. It might mean sleeping in beside her occasionally. It might mean bedhopping some nights. But it will all only be for a short time. And yes, a few weeks/months/maybe even year or 2 is a very short time in the context of their lives. I now have 3 teenagers rapidly heading for adulthood. They pretty much do their own thing now and largely ignore us! It really doesn't seem all that long ago that I was snuggling in with a 3 year old to help him fall asleep.

Shift your routine a bit. See what works for you and for her. I heard a line that rings very very true, especially when you realise your babies have become teenagers and young adults - These are long days, but short years.

kippy

A two hour bedtime routine isn't feasible, neither is a bath every evening. As others have said it may be time to shorten the nap in the middle of the days.

As for the opinion that a kid crying going to sleep is a bad thing - depends on the context/age in my own opinion.

I know for a fact in larger families/single parent families/families with kids with additional needs etc parents tend not to have the time to be laying beside kids for hours while they go to sleep or do extensive bedtime routines with young kids - seemed to turn out fine - perhaps the less notice you take of their every ooh and ahh the better.

awec

@pipelaser, our youngest is about 27 months and while she still naps most days, it's for 30 minutes at the absolute maximum. We were in a similar situation to you, she'd happily sleep for 2 hours during the day but then it would be a mission getting her to sleep at night. So now she gets woken up after 30 minutes, she's in crap form for about 30 mins after waking but it has to be done. We told the creche the same, they had no issue with it, they'll wake her up. Nowadays her nap is optional, some days she'll go without.

This is in total contrast to our eldest, who could have napped for 4 hours during the day and it wouldn't have impacted her sleep at night at all. Which is basically me saying, ignore all the "experts", every child is different, you just need to figure out what works for yours.

In your case I'd probably cut the nap from 2 hours to 1 hour first and see if that makes a difference. IMO, you want them to be pretty tired already when you start bedtime routine, you don't want a child that's ready for more playtime with you hoping that a few stories is going to put them into sleep mode.

A 45 minute bath every night also sounds really excessive.

shesty

I actually had missed the length of the bath.

Ours had/have a bath every night but it is 10 mins max. She may well be overdone after 45 mins in the bath.Cut that way down, 10 mins max I would say.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119301722#Comment_119301722

Each to their own indeed. Maybe you're parenting style suits you, maybe there'll be consequences down the road. Others are happy to have children go to bed when they are tired and settle them down. In our case, we had babies/ toddlers in our bed, all sleeping & getting on quite happily. Older ones on bed adjacent. 8 or 9 years till they fancied their own room and wanted to sleep there. Hasn't done them or us any harm at all and all largely hassle free.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119321557#Comment_119321557

Maybe there will be consequences? I’m not sure I care for your tone if I’m honest, I think the prevailing medical advice about how much sleep a developing child needs is the way to go rather than let them go to bed when they feel they are tired.

if you enjoyed the free for all you had then good for you, but I wouldn’t go down that road personally and based on what I’ve seen and heard from others who have I wouldn’t be recommending it.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119321844#Comment_119321844

No offence meant. What I was intending to say is that every child is different and a one size fits all approach may not be in every childs best interests. Parents are ultimately the experts on their own children, rather than 'prevailing medical advice' IMHO.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119323310#Comment_119323310

Fair enough, apologies for my overreaction.

Pawwed Rig

Get rid of the nap and sing her some songs after the stories with the lights out. No other stimulus like night lights etc

Bambaata

Reading this with interest, we've a 23 month old that has slept a full night perhaps 5 times ever and the last 2 to 3 months has taken to waking between 05:00 and 05:30 every morning (odd occasion close to 6) and impossible to settle!! even with b ed by 19:00 there'll be between 2 and 5 times we've to go in through the night and settle him!

shesty

That's all normal @Bambaata .(Sorry!).

Mine were all pushing on for 2.5/3 by the time they slept through 5 out of 7 nights, and they are decent enough sleepers.The phase will pass.

As for the early rising, well here I am up since 6.50am, when my 6 year old arrived in to ask me which dress did I think she should wear.....it doesn't matter what time bedtime is here, they all seem to wake between 6.30 and 7 regardless.And they are 8, 6 and 4. I can't offer a bit of advice there other than to say put her back in her bed if it is before 6am/6.30 (or leave her there if she is happy enough)...decide the time you are happy for you to get up at!