BCAR Certification

kidsbo

I engaged an Architect to be the Assigned Certifier for the construction of my dwelling. I engaged an Engineer to design the foundations (only - no other works). The works are now complete and there is a dispute between the Architect and Engineer over the form of certification that the Engineer should provide. The Architect is of the view that it should be the Ed / Ed / Ei forms and the Engineer is of the view that it should be the Sd/Sc/Si forms. Can anyone assist?

The Mighty Quinn

Sd/Sc/Si forms are for specialist design - structural does not fall into this category. This would be the likes of sprinkler system design, coldrooms, etc etc.

Ed/Ec/Ei forms are for engineering design - this is what you want. This would catch civil, structural, mechanical, electrical engineering design. Maybe more.

For what it's worth Ad/Ac/Ai forms are architectural.

kidsbo

Does that mean the Eng needs to be Chartered? - I don't think she is. She advised that was only required if she was the Assigned Certifier.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119138542#Comment_119138542

She needs to be someone with qualification and experience in the theory of Structural Engineering.

She needs the relevant PI Insurance to cover her design and risk.

I don’t think she needs to be Chartered IMO but her PI Insurance policy should state what she can get involved in etc

Wildly Boaring

Ed Ei Ec generally for the structural engineer.

I'm a bit surprised she's not chartered. As above it's really her PI your Assigned Certifier wants to lean on.

Would have thought all insurers insist on chartership as a bare minimum for competency. But what do I know....

There is a note on the BCMS practice notes that Sd Si Sc to be filled out by specialist or UNREGISTERED professional. See below

I believe this line and maybe stating that she speciailises in foundation design, is why she wants to fill out the S suite.

In this instance she may be OK. For example on a subcontracted designer for a piling specialist would fill Sd Si Sc. This is given as example 6 in the practice notes. See line 5 of attached.

(Not sure if you can read below)

Wildly Boaring

Fyi

Practice note 1

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/committee_of_public_accounts/other/2018/2018-02-08_correspondence-from-dept-education-re-st-conleths-ii_en.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj7zpSroJL4AhWkmFwKHScXAq0QFnoECAkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0lb02dil0geO8uHnuPK0Ad

And the examples in note 2

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/committee_of_public_accounts/other/2018/2018-02-08_correspondence-from-dept-education-and-skills-re-st-conleths-iii_en.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj7zpSroJL4AhWkmFwKHScXAq0QFnoECAsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw22pw4lT6Ii0KIqsWY1cXGX

Mellor

The forms availible online state; "by or under the suoervision of a Chartered Engineer". But those forms are produced in association with Engineers Ireland, and other bodies, so there's a vested interest.

Regardless, the task is quite clearly engineering design. So Ed Ec Ei forms imo, unless the engineer can provide a strong justification.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119155961#Comment_119155961

That example is for the subcontractor, a specialist engaged by the builder/Main contractor. OP is not talking about a subcontractor.

In this instance she may be OK. For example on a subcontracted designer for a piling specialist would fill Sd Si Sc. This is given as example 6 in the practice notes. See line 5 of attached.

maybe if they were employed by the subcontracted concrete company. But if employed for design of the foundations. They are engaged for structural engineering design.

Wildly Boaring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156609#Comment_119156609

No line 3 of the piling example can be for where a designer is employed direct and not only through a subbie.

This engineer is steering clear of the E suite as she only designed the foundation. Not the walls, roof etc. And she may be correct.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156660#Comment_119156660

I think you need to re-read point 3.

It clearly says where a party is appointed by a contractor. By definition that makes that designer a sub-contractor. If OP is the main contractor, that could maybe apply. But if they are the client, who has engaged a designer, then that is clearly engineering design and not a subcontracted specialist.

This engineer is steering clear of the E suite as she only designed the foundation. Not the walls, roof etc. And she may be correct.

Where does it state that the engineer has to design every element for the E series to apply? It would be very strange for an engineer to design every element in a residential project.