Annual Registration & further Part4

mrslancaster

Can someone explain how this is supposed to work please?

I just had a chat with a landlord who has a further p4 tenancy that started in Dec2017. He did not want to extend the tenancy past the current further p4 which is due to finish in Dec2023 and had told the tenants to give them plenty of notice, both parties were ok with that. He was not planning to issue the actual termination notice (with the required period of weeks) until mid 2023 under the current rules to stop a further p4 coming into existence.

Now his RTB registration is showing that he needs to do the annual registration in Dec22 and not Dec23. Does that mean the tenancy will become an indefinite tenancy at that point even though it still has a year to go under the further p4 rules? If he wants to issue a termination notice now, is he restricted to one of the allowed grounds even though he is in the middle of a further p4 and the tenant believed he would be secure until Dec23.

themoone

The Annual Regstration is supposed to be for the RTB to capture more accurate data regarding tenancies, or that is the party line. Basically it is a 40 Euro fee every year as opposed to the 90 at the beginning of the tenancy. Another way to extract more money from landlords and give them extra work as well.

I think you are confusing the Annual Registration FEE (which came into effect April 2022) with indefinite tenancies (which came into effect Dec 2021?). Indefinite tenancies are any new tenancies that come into effect starting June 2022 (these will no longer have a cycle of 4 or 6 years) but will have to rely on the other reasons for termination i.e. sale ... etc.

He will have to pay the fee in Dec. 2022. He can still give the notice with the required period in 2023. As they are increasing the notice periods I would suggest he issues it early 2023 (he can provide more notice than the min statutory give by law). Then when the tenancy terminates in 2023 he will register a new tenancy (this one if he continues will be the indefinite tenancies). The RTB is supposed to be provided with a copy of his notice to the tenants but they are already swampped so cant see this will be handled well but sure we will see.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119135908#Comment_119135908

Thank you, yes, the changes can be confusing. So, the landlord is right in thinking that when he pays the annual registration in Dec22, the tenancy will become an indefinite one because it will be after July22.

So basically every existing P4 or further p4 that is currently part-way through a six-year cycle will change to an indefinite tenancy because the annual registration in 2022 creates it, is that correct?

Why is there a provision for a landlord to inform the tenant that the landlord consents to a tenancy of indefinite duration if it is automatic anyway based on the annual registration? 🤣🤣 Edit: Does a landlord have to write to a tenant about this

themoone

Sorry I seem to have added to your confusion.

Annual Registeration is a form informing the RTB that the tenancy still exists along with a fee of 40 Euro to be paid every year of the tenancy instead of the once off at the commencement of the tenancy which was 90 Euro. Basically the RTB records are a mess and they are charging landlords 40 Euro to get them in order.

Indefinate tenancies is a totally different thing and that is for new tenancies starting June 2022. All new tenancies can not be terminated at the end of part 4 or part 6 cycles. If landlord wishes to terminate has to use the other reasons.

I have attached the explination about the annual registration it might be more clear.

https://www.rtb.ie/annual-registration

Not totally sure about the landlord informing the tenant about indefinite leases.

themoone

To explain more. The landlord when selling his property issued a Notice of Termination and if he sold he was to inform the RTB. however, most did not bother.

Another factor is that the landlord is to inform the RTB if they issue the Notice, but there is no requirement if the Notice is issued by the tenant. During the Pandemic a large number of tenants vacated and in if the landlord decided to sell or not rent it out again he was not obliged to tell the RTB.

These tenancies continue to be listed on the RTB system as active tenancies when in reality that is not the case.

If you have followed the Boards you will note some landlords say the numbers of Landlords exiting the market is larger than what the RTB says and these are some of the examples.

The RTB "Aims" to use this registration to actually have more accurate figures that remains to be seen. And why not use it to get more money out the landlords.

mrslancaster

@themoone Appreciate the information which was very helpful.

My landlord friend would like to understand how this part will affect him:

"Transitional measures are provided in the 2021 Amendment Act in relation to the conversion of existing tenancies to tenancies of unlimited duration over time"

Do you know where I can find an explanation about how that will work?

themoone

@mrslancaster

the following links

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2021/act/39/enacted/en/print#sec7

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/28/enacted/en/html

Compare the two.

Also this link

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2021/145/

I can see in this link from the Oireachtas what you mean. He is applying the law retrospectively!!. How can a law be applied retorspectively!!. Also the query is if the landlord does not consent and the tenant requests it can the landlord refuse?

mrslancaster

.....

mrslancaster

This may be of interest to some landlords and may have been discussed on an earlier thread that I didn't manage to find.

***How annual registration affects existing tenancies ***

The RTB website says any new tenancy created after 11 June will become unlimited duration after six months occupancy if a notice of termination has not been issued during the initial six months.

There is no information about how existing tenancies that are part way through a six year cycle will transition to one of indefinite duration.

I was told earlier by an EA, that by simply registering an existing six year cycle tenancy on the anniversary date, that tenancy automatically changes to an indefinite duration. From 11 June, any NoT can only be on the allowable grounds of sale etc.

Any landlord who does not want an existing tenancy to become an indefinite one can still use the ground of preventing a further part 4 by issuing an NoT by 10 June. There is no maximum time for a NoT provided it gives the required number of weeks notice.

dennis72

I have a notice to register an existing 6 yr p4 its a house share some are leaving but I have being notified of replacements, existing doesn't want to leave.

The option & template for ending a part 4 before a new 1 begins has disappeared on the site.

even though unlimited starts on the 11/6

First Post, but irosion of property ownership continues.

Will seek to end tenancy on my return to Ireland as its my only house not listed as private residence

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167792#Comment_119167792

You can refuse to accept new sub tenants and still insist the remaining tenant pays the full rent. That will get rid of them pretty sharpish.

dennyk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170265#Comment_119170265

This can be a tricky situation, actually. If the tenancy agreement states that the tenant(s) can't take on any licensees, then this would be an option. If it doesn't, however, then there's nothing preventing the current tenant from bringing in new housemates as their own licensees rather than as co-tenants directly; that does not require the approval of the landlord under the law. The law only requires that the landlord be informed of the names of anyone living in the property; it doesn't give them the statutory right to veto such licensees.

Also, if the main tenant has Part 4 rights, those licensees can request to be made full tenants at any time, and the landlord cannot unreasonably refuse their request. When they become full tenants, their time as licensees counts towards their acquisition of Part 4 rights themselves. This means that, absent a clause in the current tenant's agreement explicitly prohibiting licensees, the tenant can being whoever they want into the property as a licensee (which the landlord has no control over if bringing in such licensees isn't a breach of the tenant's agreement), then six months later those licensees can request to become tenants (which the landlord can't refuse unless they have a very good reason) and they will instantly gain Part 4 rights at that time, and those rights will then remain in effect even if the original tenant later leaves the property.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119177028#Comment_119177028

This is interesting - I queried the part4 status for licensees/lodgers a few months ago with RTB for my nephew who wanted to take in a lodger.

RTB said if a registered tenant is allowed under the lease to have a lodger, eg, if a tenant in a 2 bed wanted someone to help with rent and bills, the lodger can request to become a full tenant and be added to the lease. If the landlord agrees and adds them to the tenancy registration they become tenants as opposed to lodgers. They gain part4 rights like any other tenant after six months occupancy as a tenant.

They could be a licensee for any amount of time before that, eg two years, it doesn't mean anything because occupancy leading to part4 rights only starts from the date they are a tenant on the lease.

RTB said if it's a houseshare and one tenant on the lease leaves and a new person replaces them, the new person doesn't gain part4 rights until after six months on the tenancy agreement. The part4 rights of the tenant leaving doesn't transfer over to the new person. Also said landlord cant allow lodgers to become tenants if it results in overcrowding.

Edit: now wondering if nephew got wrong information...

Claw Hammer

Almost invariable leases do not allow sub letting or assignment without the concurrence of the landlord, Furthermore there is a statutory restriction on sub-letting vwithout consent and a requirement to notify the landlord of any person ordinarily resident in the dwelling.

With regard to licensee of part 4 tenants when they become tenants the part 4 period is deemed to commence when the original tenant moved in. All tenants have the same part 4 rights.

dennyk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119177124#Comment_119177124

The RTB used to have a handy pamphlet on the subject, but it vanished when they redesigned their web site a while back. You can still find a copy here, though, and it covers the topic quite well:

https://docplayer.net/27921090-B-persons-staying-in-hotels-guesthouses-hostels-etc-b-persons-sharing-a-house-apartment-with-its-owner-e-g-under-the-rent-a-room-scheme.html

It does sound like your nephew got some incorrect advice, unless the RTB's interpretation has changed recently:

During the existence of a Part 4 tenancy any lawful licensee of the tenant/s may request the landlord to be allowed to become a tenant of the tenancy. The landlord may not unreasonably refuse such a request and must give his/her acceptance in writing. All the rights, restrictions and obligations of a tenant will then apply to the former licensee except that the protection of the Part 4 tenancy will not apply until the former licensee has completed 6 months of continuous occupation counting time spent as a licensee and as a tenant.

It is true that a tenant only gains Part 4 rights after they themselves have actually been in the property for six months (as a tenant or a licensee), so if a new occupant comes into a shared property as a tenant, they won't have Part 4 rights themselves for the first six months even if the other tenants are under Part 4. The RTB's view has been that time spent occupying the property as a licensee of a tenant does count towards acquisition of Part 4 rights, however, so unless that's changed recently, it is an important consideration.

From a tenant's perspective, it's also important to note that the original tenant themselves actually has no say in their licensee becoming a full tenant, and of course once that licensee becomes a tenant, only the landlord can terminate their tenancy (and only under the circumstances where the law allows for a termination). The original tenant can no longer kick their former licensee out at that point. So if you're a renter and you're considering taking on a housemate, be sure to choose carefully, because you could end up stuck living with them indefinitely...

dennyk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119178293#Comment_119178293

It's important to note that taking on a licensee is not subletting, even though many people incorrectly use that term in that way. Subletting is when the primary tenant vacates their rented property entirely and lets the entire property out to a subtenant while maintaining their original lease with the property owner. That practice does require the permission of the landlord per the RTA. The RTA, however, does not place any such restrictions on tenants taking in a licensee in their rented property; the only stipulation in the law is that landlords must be notified of the names of any occupants living permanently in the dwelling. The law does not explicitly give landlords the right to object to such occupants or demand that they leave the property. However, if the lease agreement prohibits taking in a licensee without the landlord's consent, then doing so would be a breach of the tenancy agreement and thus grounds for termination if not corrected. (If the lease simply prohibits "subletting" without expanding on the meaning of that term, that isn't likely to be sufficient, though, as absent something in the agreement itself to the contrary, the RTB is likely to go by the legal definition of that term, which doesn't cover tenants taking in a licensee while continuing to reside in the property themselves.)

themoone

@dennyk I queried what you just mentioned a while back and did was constantly told that I should agree to the replacement/subtenant. Anyway you mention that the lease can not just simply prohibit subletting. So in your openion (as you seem well versed on this) what would be the wording that would be suitable. Something within the lines of "The premises is to be occupied exclusively and solely by the tenants. No other occupiers, guests or visitors shall be allowed to occupy the premises or any part thereof and this agreement is exclusive to the tenants named" which is what is used by the Bar Association. I have also seen this as being "paying guests" would these suffice or not. Or would you have to mention licensee specifically. I know a lot mention that this clause is in their leases but I am unable to find out the exact wording. So keen on your input.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179819#Comment_119179819

leases generally use the phrase "the tenant shall not assign, sublet, share or otherwise part with possession without the express written consent of the alndlord in addition to prohibiting the carrying on of a business or the taking in of paying guests. taking in a licencee is carrying on a business since the income is the tenants and not the landlords.

themoone

@clawhammer, thank you for your input.

dennyk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119180066#Comment_119180066

Drafting legal documents is a job for your solicitor. If you don't have a solicitor advising you and you're planning to get into the landlord business, that's probably an oversight that should be corrected quickly, before any serious damage is done.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119180266#Comment_119180266

Thanks for that info.

"Taking in of paying guests" seems clear enough and covers lodgers who pay rent or airbnb type guests. I also heard about a tenant who took in foreign language students and received a NoT for breach of the lease, so that's clearly included.

What would happen if the 'guest' staying in the property at the invitation of the tenant didn't pay rent, eg, a GF/BF or an adult family member say a sibling or parent, can they request to become a tenant, ie., is the criteria the occupancy or some form of rent payment?

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119180066#Comment_119180066

I actually discussed this with a solicitor.

The bottomline in his opinion is you cannot prevent the tenants from creating licencees as this is a right of exclusion surrendered to the tenants inherently by lease. Terms trying to prevent this are not enforceable and in any professionally prepared lease, you will not find terms like this.

However the tenants must inform you of persons occupying in the property. Also if there is too many persons residing in the property, you can issue notice based on this.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119182065#Comment_119182065

If they are living there as a non paying guest they are a licensee and could request to be made a tenant after 6 months according to the literal wording of the act. There would be a discretion to refuse to make the person a tenant and such a person would become liable jointly and severally for the rent.

There is no reason you can't limit the rights of the tenant to create licences. You part with possession but can have covenants which effectively nullify the grant of possession so a covenant not allowing a tenant have even a social visitor but it is perfectly reasonable to restrain the tenant from having others living in the property as paying guests or long term free guests.

themoone

@mrslancaster Here is the link regarding the indefinite tenancies. https://www.rtb.ie/tenancies-of-unlimited-duration. Also check the frequently asked questions as it sheds light on the situation with regard to existing tenancies.