New tree drooping - problem? (Pictures)

DylanQuestion

I planted two red oak trees last year (October 2020 and March 2021) to replace dead ash on a hedgerow. In general, they are growing great. They have a lot of room to grow (not as obivous in the photos, and other trees will be pruned to facilitate growth for them as needed) and have direct sunlight from sunrise to around 4pm, with it then returning after 6pm/7pm in summer. I have been watering them a few times a month and giving them chicken pellets in growing seasons once a month or so (maybe 4/5 times total for each) with some compost. I also give them a little bit of tomato feed every once in a while in the water

Last summer, following some strong winds, the leaves on the October tree grew really yellow and dried out. However, it recovered over the summer. This wind led to the leaves on the March tree being really droopy, however it eventually recovered too. I don't think they lost any leaves during this behaviour. This year, they have been growing really great, especially the March tree. However, I have noticed in the last two weeks that the branches (rather than the leaves) on the October tree are starting to droop. Branches that were once fully up right (or at an angle) are now drooping over like a willow tree. I live in Cork and we did have a few weeks of no rain, however I have been watering them. So I'm wondering three things if you guys could give advice

1. Am I over watering?
2. Am I under watering?
3. Is this normal and I should just leave it be (outside of normal watering/feeding), or should I prune the drooping stuff to not cause damage?

There are photos attatched. The red lines I have drawn are where the branches used to go, while the blue line is approximately where the branches are now (I know it can be a bit hard to tell from the photo)

DylanQuestion

Here is a distant photo (all I could find) of it just before I noticed the drooping, right when I noticed it, and a photo from just now from the same angle. Again, they have much more room to grow in reality and on the ground aren't near tree trunks, it just looks more crowded in the photos. In the photo from today, the two arched branches at the front left were completely up right until a few weeks ago

Today:

Noticed the drooping:

Just before:

The Continental Op

Over watering, underwatering, or root problems.

1st IA if its not been watered is to put the hose pipe on it and really soak it. If you have already been doing that then stop doing it.

I'd suspect with that sycamore behind it the ground is pretty dry and that you have been thinking a watering can is enough water? The water probably isn't soaking in far enough.

I'd dig a test hole about 3ft out from the tree and take a look at the soil conditions. Best way to get water to if the soil is dry below the top few inches is to sink some foot long lenghts of 110mm Wavin pipe about 9 inches into the ground and water by filling them up. You can do the same with some 3 liter pots.

Nearly forgot wind will dry those leaves out and make the droop and we have had a lot of wind recently.

I would also consider taking a spade and cutting into the soil as deeply as possible around the tree to cut the sycamores roots which will take all the water. I'd go out between a meter and two meters radius.

DylanQuestion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119074784#Comment_119074784

I did the watering hose thing last year but so far this year have been using a few rounds of a big watering can (bar one or two soaks with a hose). When I initially dug the hole to stake for the tree, I had it in the wrong spot, so there is a 10 or so inch ddeep hole next to the tree that I have been filling with water each time I water it too to soak into the soil rather than sitting on top. I have noticed the pipe situation being done on similar tree plantings in the area, so will look into that too. Do you recommend any pruning or would that just cause unneccessary stress? It's currently raining today but I'll likely hook the hose up to it anyway and stick the hose into the hole I mentioned so the water isn't just sliding off the ground

looksee

Also stop feeding it. You are producing soft fast growth that can't cope with the weight of the leaves. I personally would probably take a bit of weight off the branches by pruning, but I am not at all sure that is a recommended way of dealing with it.

The Continental Op

Prunning would be a last ditch and you are far from that yet.

To check how its going I'd do some more pictures like you have already and do a before and 24 hours after watering to see if it makes any difference.

The more I think about it with that sycamore there I doubt you could ever over water.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119074861#Comment_119074861

that was my first thought - could it be fresh new sappy growth that's too heavy for the branches in question?

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119075013#Comment_119075013

You could be right but my guess is most of any feeding will end up in the sycamore.

DylanQuestion

Thank you everyone for your advice and quick responses :) I have put the hose into the hole mentioned previously and I turned the water on (not too high of a flow) just after 2pm. My plan is to leave it turned on until 3pm, turn it off for 15-30 minutes and then turn it on again until 6pm. I noticed too that while there is maybe 2 ft of clear space around the base of the tree, a lot of weeds and wildflowers are growing oustside of that 2ft diameter and maybe they're further stealing water. For reference, here are some photos I just took, that I will recreate this time tomorrow. In the second photo, the branches that are sloping down to the left, they were upright previosly. The first photo is it just after Halloween last year

10-10-20

Overwatering and not replacing the leached minerals and nitrates could also impair the plant. Keep a balance but don't drown it.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119074861#Comment_119074861

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119075013#Comment_119075013

Agreed, they are just drooping under their own weight.

Two solutions, shorten back the branches as Looksee says until they straighten up, or attach bamboo canes along the entire length until the wood hardens over the summer.

And stop feeding, as others have said it's contributing to the problem with soft lush growth

Nothing to do with watering as far as i can see, they should be well established by now and don't look like they're suffering from drought at all

Jim_Hodge

Agree it's no a water issue. Just heavy with new growth. I find they often strengthen up in a few weeks. If some side branches are particularly bad and seem in danger of breaking you could prune them back.

DylanQuestion

Thanks all, I gave it a good soaking with the hose today for probably combined 2 hours, and we got a lot of rain, so if there is any water issue, I would hope that would help fix it. I'm definitely considering cutting off some of the new leaves (not branches per se) as it's drooping more and more as the day goes on

Does it look healthy to ye other than that? The leaves look nice and healthy to me

The Continental Op

Looks healthy enough. The weight of rain on the leaves will make it droop. See what it looks like mid morning tomorrow for a better idea.

standardg60

As said, it's not a watering issue.

Rather than removing leaves where some of the stems branch remove those that are growing downwards on the underside leaving the straightest one, that should straighten them up, or the canes as i've mentioned

Furze99

Oak trees are very tough and resilient on the whole. I've had some half grazed / killed by sheep, come back stronger than ever.

looksee

As the others have said, they will be fine. I agree it is not a watering issue, those leaves are fine, just too heavy rather than wilting. I would not take leaves off, either cut them back a bit or just leave them alone. If they are still bowed down in the autumn when they have lost their leaves then you can consider how to straighten them, I reckon you are a bit inclined to kill them with kindness 🙂

DylanQuestion

^ Yeah, I thought I was under feeding it, not over feeding! 😂 I'm glad you guys think they look healthy, I think I'll just leave it be for a few weeks and see what happens. Again, thanks for all your help. I may be back in this thread in a few weeks if I have anymore queries

DylanQuestion

Didn't notice a huge difference so I looked at the leaves more carefully and clipped downward growing ones that looked to be dragging it down. As soon as I cut, they started to move back up. Still drooping but an improvement. It's hard to tell as it is so windy so it is all over the place, but I assume that will make it stronger. Here are some photos of the leaves, they look fully healthy to me

Before, change in the middle left

After

Leaves

blackbox

I have several red oak trees that are now fairly mature on poor soil and they have never been fed and show no sign of needing it. After the first year they shouldn't need to be watered unless there is a prolonged summer drought.

DylanQuestion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119081247#Comment_119081247

Thank you, it's hard to find other people with them. I was told in the garden centre to give them a feed or water for the first spring just to give them a headstart over the other trees, but I did it this year too just in case. Unless drought happens, I probably won't water or feed them again. Did yours ever go this droopy way too? I think the general consensus is that they're fine and the leaves are just overly heavy on the branches, but I'm curious if other red oak owners have noticed this too

tabby aspreme

It's the weight of the leaves from the lush growth that's causing it to droop, you are causing this by overfeeding it, just leave it alone and it will be fine.

DylanQuestion

At the end of May, I cut off a few of the leaves that looked to be causing the most drooping, stopped feeding it and gave it water 2 or 3 times since. It has now recovered extremely well. While the two branches that drooped over haven't stood back up, they have just hardened out where they are. Looks a lot healthier now. Thanks everyone again for your advice!