Ukrainian Refugees: What SHOULD have been done?

Mods: This thread is not intended to mirror the Ukrainian accommodation or the Russia thread. If it evolves that way, fine, close the thread.

However, I've seen a lot of complaining over the handling of this refugee crisis (myself included), and I'm curious what people would have done differently. The handling of the situation by the Govt has been abysmal. Considering that they have experts and advisors to draw upon, in addition to the resources (human and others) of the EU/UN, to analyse and formulate a reasonable cost effective plan to deal with the problems involved, but are scampering around like headless chickens.

I don't intend the thread to be a govt bashing thread. We've done that to death already. Instead, for those of you interested in the situation, what do you think would have been the best action plans to implement for both Ukrainians and the Irish people. Keep in mind the problems that Ireland currently faces with the current housing crisis, inflation, and the very real possibility of a recession looming over the horizon. Also, that refugees are most likely to remain in Ireland for at least a year, and many will wish to remain in Ireland after the conflict has ended (nope, not looking for an argument over how many), thus adding to the demands for rental or purchase properties.

I'm not expecting anyone to do extensive research to support themselves. We all have lives to live (I'm in the middle of exams).

How would you respond to the situation? What would you seek to implement?

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For myself, I see two realistic answers.

First:

The provision of funding and expertise to Poland and other Eastern European countries to establish refugee camps, keeping Ukrainians close to Ukraine, but also providing adequate protection and care. Prefabs and tents can be setup relatively quickly, as there are large concentrations of NATO personnel stationed nearby with the knowledge of rapidly establishing forward operating bases, or logistics camps. Modern soldiers don't live that badly when a camp it established, so, for the short-medium period, such camps, if properly maintained, would be a realistic option. By not sending refugees throughout Western Europe, there wouldn't be the expense involved (As western nations are far more expensive in terms of living costs but also for all products and services). Basically, western money spent in Poland would go much further than any similar amount spent in Ireland. The monies saved could be poured into Eastern Europe, giving a serious stimulus to all Eastern European countries (which would improve their own economic stability, and give them the resources to improve their militaries against future conflict.) It would also serve to keep refugees close to Ukraine, and therefore easier to return after the conflict has ended. (Yes yes, Ukrainians love their country, but it was never easy for Ukrainians to get visas to EU nations, and right now, all basic visa requirements have been waived. Many will seek to remain after the conflict.. don't worry, they'll still love their country while they remain in Ireland or Germany)

Second: Ireland.

The government has put no cap on refugees to be accepted. Initially it was 20k, then 50, then 100, and lastly 200k. Realistically, the 50k is most likely with the current response in effect. If the govt response improves, more Ukrainians will want to come here.. that simple logic. So, 50k, women and children. Which likely means about 30k houses, rooms, or whatever. (We still have our own population to consider too). Which, regardless of how generous Irish people are, I don't believe to be practical, as it involves providing for people for 6m-1yr+. Sharing with strangers is difficult enough in normal times, never mind, people who are coming from a warzone. There's bound to be heaps of problems, and the numbers offering to help will drop. That's no judgment on those people involved... it's just the way I see it.

Now, I've spent a lot of time living in China, and Asia in general... and while the general quality of buildings is low compared to Ireland (in some areas), they're also put up extremely fast. If we're wanting quickly built units to last a decade or so, then, the difference in quality doesn't really matter.

https://www.dezeen.com/2021/06/22/broad-group-modular-apartment-block-28-hours/#:~:text=A%20timelapse%20released%20by%20Broad,a%20building%20of%20this%20scale.

For example, this 10-story apartment block was built in 29 hours. Now, from experience, I'm always very sceptical when it comes to China, and what Chinese companies do, but considering we're in something of a crisis here, similar investments could be a viable solution. I can remember Apartment complexes being built near to my own apartment, and being essentially finished in three months. That being four apartment towers, with roughly 24 floors (usually 4 apartments per floor, and two floors below ground for parking).

"In April last year, a Chinese construction company Broad Sustainable Building claimed itself to be the world’s fastest builder after erecting a 57-storey skyscraper in just 19 working days. "

Surely, such a thing would be an option?

Alternatively, I was thinking of the boarding school I attended for Irish college which had three large buildings which communally held, I dunno, a hundred students or more. No real reason that similar dormitory style buildings couldn't be built to house Ukrainians in a particular area, which has the advantage of encouraging their community to be together. The old communist-era style apartment blocks are another option, with a similar setup.

In terms of land, NAMA still holds roughly 577 hectares of residential development land. And then, there's a rake of other land held by the government institutions would could redirected to such projects.

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The advantage of all this would be to have some alternatives to temporarily house Irish people (until they find their own place) once the Ukrainians go home.

In conclusion, don't turn this into a bitching session, and while you might want to do a Gotcha post to nitpick at peoples suggestions, perhaps refrain yourself? I know it's hard, but let's see a thread that talks about what's possible rather than people **** on others opinions. Something different on CA.

Lastly, let's stick to reality. Remember that money doesn't grow on trees. Leave out the SpaceX colonies on Mars.

So, what would you have liked to see done by the government? What would have been the best response to the crisis (let's not talk about joining NATO, stick to the refugee angle)?

Cheers.

mikethecop

your name should be captain hindsight .....

Fandymo

I would agree on your point A. There should have been vast EU/NATO camps set up within the north of Ukraine or in neighbouring countries.

The Irish government have brought in Ukrainians who had connections and accomodation sorted in Ireland. It should have asked for pledges of accomodation and worked on a database of suitable, livable places and brought in the numbers as they came online. It would be an ongoing, evolving thing, so numbers could have started arriving almost immediately.

"The handling of the situation by the Govt has been abysmal.

Considering that they have experts and advisors to draw upon, in addition to the resources (human and others) of the EU/UN, to analyse and formulate a reasonable cost effective plan to deal with the problems involved, but are scampering around like headless chickens.

I don't intend the thread to be a govt bashing thread." 🤣 😂 😁 😅

Gotta love such an open minded, objective, balanced commentator!

brokenangel

A war started. It is great a few weeks after the war has started and the people are in Ireland to come with idea's of what should have been done

The thread would have made more sense at the time

Unfortunately the government doesn't realise the Ireland of a thousands welcomes doesn't really exist anymore. More people are interested in seeing Ukraine people either die at home or sit on the street in Ireland so they can complain about the government than do anything.

The posts on the other thread from some posters, you would swear Ireland was importing thousands of mass murders

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118960496#Comment_118960496

Ireland of the 1000 welcomes was a commercial slogan, like Just Do It, I'm Lovin' It, The Fightin' Irish, Because I'm Worth It.

It's not reality.

gladvimpaker

It's great putting a roof over their heads and giving them food and medicine etc

But theres no thought about their mental health such as being shell shocked and post traumatic experiences. People who are dealing with people coming from a war need to get help adjusting to looking after the traumatized people too.

They're not going to be all sunshine lollipops and rainbows, and people will be accomadating people who are stressed, probably having nightmares and homesick. Its great to accomadate them but their spirit will be shattered...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118960466#Comment_118960466

Wow. Thank you for your insightful and useful contribution to the thread.

Nermal

https://twitter.com/StatistaCharts/status/1517141101467033600

What should have been done: relocate refugees fleeing proxy wars to the nations that are most actively pursuing them.

Okay, mods. I was wrong. Seems all threads go the same way as the other ones already here.

Strumms

Problem is The Ukraine is a population of around 44 million people….

if 20-25 million or whatever are going to be looking to relocate….temporarily or full time as the UN suggested…

there is no way to support some of that without major pain and consequences, difficulty, disruption and disturbance being administered onto the taxpayers, native populations etc…. Just no way around it. No real ‘should have done’.. it’s being done.

I’m very fearful for the EU but this country, genuinely… we have a shortage of GPs AND hospital consultants according to the IMO and NTPD there is currently an average of 0.69 GPs per 1000 population, when it should be between 1.02 and 1.1. per 1000. Also 1600 consultants short yet this invitation…comes complete with a medical card for everyone…!?!

what should have been done is cut our cloth to suit our measure..put a cap on x number… now there is and will be ZERO cap according to McEntee yesterday.

does she give a fûck ? Nope… not one element of her life will be impacted. Decisions are being made to impinge on our wellbeing…to enable that of others…

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118960592#Comment_118960592

sorry its captain obvious's day off

Dohnjoe

If boards was around in 1940 it would have been chock full of "Jewish Refugees: Should we take them?" threads

its not in Irish politicians nature to plan ahead, always wait for the last minute to react and come up some half baked plan that never works

Beasty

OP one thing I think is worth highlighting here is the opportunity to deal with the housing crisis while retaining scope for further increases in population.

There does seem to be a fundamental issue with Ireland's planning laws. However this is an opportunity to force through the commitments to deliver 30k+ housing units a year.

I realise there is the immediate issue of refugees to handle. Hopefully that becomes a short to medium term issue. I know some refugees will want to stay in Ireland once this war is over. Indeed many have nothing to go back to anyway. I do not think this has to be a negative though. Many refugees already in Ireland are from professions that require talent and/or skill. Add to that some of the men currently fighting this war and we may then have a stronger workforce able to put in place some of that accommodation, some of the schools required, some of the hospital and other medical resources required.

Kids being forced into a foreign school system may well be in position to contribute significantly to society over time.

I'm not downplaying the short term issues this all brings. We all unfortunately will face some short term pain as a result of this conflict. However it's also an opportunity to plan for some long term gain. I'm not saying we must do that planning now either. There are more fundamental short term issues resulting from this war. However let's see if we can ultimately get some positives to try and counterbalance some of the negatives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118960678#Comment_118960678

Complete and utter tripe! For the past three years, every Irish politician has been planning how to retain their Dáil, Seanad or Council seat!

However, it's not the job of our elected politicians to plan ahead for emergencies, rather their job is to ensure that the necessary structures are in place to plan for different types of emergency and that they are operating efficiently.

In Ireland the body responsible for overall co-ordination is called the Office of Emergency Planning which comes under the Minister for Defence. It can call upon representatives from all of the bodies that will be involved with responding to various types of emergencies, and, in the case of the Ukranian refugees, it has been working with a wide range of public bodies to ensure that, to the best of their ability, the reception and processing of these refugees is proceeding smoothly. For me, it's been doing a pretty good job given the timeframe and numbers involved.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118961482#Comment_118961482

yeah a good job in the midst of an ongoing housing crisis to say we can take in an unlimited amount of people

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118961406#Comment_118961406

OP one thing I think is worth highlighting here is the opportunity to deal with the housing crisis while retaining scope for further increases in population.

Completely agree.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118961406#Comment_118961406

You raise some very good points.

We need to look at the positives. If half the refugees decide to stay in Ireland, no doubt most will gain employment and bring skills that are badly needed.

The ones I’ve come across find our society so different to their own. Not least the difference in the cost of living!

Opportunities often arise from crises. Hopefully this will be the case for Ireland.

For now, all we can do is offer them shelter until it’s safe for them to return home or they settle down in Ireland.

MacDanger

I think the govt are doing a reasonably good job wrt refugees

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118961406#Comment_118961406

How do you know what professions the refugees have? My guess is you don't. Your post is full of you assuming.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118961722#Comment_118961722

Like all of those "Syrian" doctors and engineers we got. Lucky us!!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118961691#Comment_118961691

If half the refugees decide to stay in Ireland, no doubt most will gain employment and bring skills that are badly needed.

How? Ukraine is a 2nd world nation, with the worst economy in Europe, and has had serious issues with corruption within it's educational system. So.. what are these skills that are badly needed? And where are all the jobs for them? Ireland's economy is heavily focused on skilled labour. We don't have any substantial manufacturing base like Germany, and our Agricultural industry has been struggling for decades. The hospitality sector is crying out for labour but work standards are low, job security is awful, and pay is low... (which means that potential employees will still need welfare supplements for living expenses). Where are all these jobs that Ukrainians will be filling, bearing in mind that most are women/children?

We're entering the post covid period, and Ireland has had two years of businesses closing. That includes British companies in Ireland which left due to Brexit. There hasn't been any major increase in business development over the last few years, so.. all these new jobs will be coming from where? Never mind, the imminent recession that was delayed by covid, but will arrive with twice or three times the impact because the issues of debt financing, covid, and now the Ukrainian conflict have happened...

Opportunities often arise from crises. Hopefully this will be the case for Ireland

Sure, but not by looking at the positives. That's been done to death in this country over the last two decades. It's why the HSE has been failing for years.. focus on the positives, ignore the negatives. The same can be said for dozens of other real problems within Irish society and the economy.

We need to take a serious look at the realities of the situation that Ireland is in, and that means looking at the negatives. And then, find cost-effective practical solutions (not a short-term band-aid plaster) to them, without adding ever more strain on the current infrastructure.

Viscount Aggro

Part of his goal is to destabilise the EU project, via massive refugee migrations.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118961722#Comment_118961722

I know by talking to them in the centre where I volunteer. Amazing what one can learn through face to face interaction. Mind you, Google Translate is often called on, though some have pretty good English.

B2021M

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118960466#Comment_118960466

What of what the OP said couldn't have been clearly envisaged when this began?

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118961776#Comment_118961776

Some people really don't think before they speak. If you hadn't noticed most refugees end up here because Western actions in other nations, not Russian, and the EU itself has done everything it can to allow this to continue. So are the EU trying to destroy themselves too?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118961817#Comment_118961817

EU has nothing to do with military operations at least not yet. So should Ireland guilt itself into taking refugees despite it not been involved in any 'western action in other nations'?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118961482#Comment_118961482

I think our housing authorities dont really know what to do in ordinary times at all and handing them the responsibility to locate housing was in some cases disastrous. I would personally have got the aid agencies much more involved in that process.

Brucie Bonus

We, people, supposedly have analysts in every nation paid a large wedge to draw up reports and the like to prepare for certain scenarios.

After Putin invaded crimea further incursions must have presented itself as a possibility.

In Ireland, even with a two or three years heads up we always seem to be unprepared and acting like headless chickens.

Next winter whoever the minister of health is will be surprised by the numbers of people on trolleys. Its tradition.

We should have been prepared for the number of refugees we said we'd take. Simple, one would think.

Beasty

Simple to those with great hindsight maybe

Who on earth could have anticipated something like this? Really?

I suspect Trump was completely detached from reality when it came to Putin. However why are we only now finding out this situation was even possibly going to arise?

Why didn't the EU or the UK warn us of this impending doom? It appears some in Ireland knew all about it. Why didn't the rest of the World (and indeed me)?

ZX7R

In regards to the op question I don't think the Irish government could have planned things any better to be honest.

Even here in Poland where I live now Even with planning in place in the weeks leading up to the war we weren't prepared for the initial influx of Ukrainian people.

Nearly 3 million have crossed into Poland and to be honest most are staying in Poland or other Eastern Europe countries.

They want to go back home and a lot have started already.

Evey eu country is facing high inflation possible recession some more than others and every country delt with covid. but that should not be used as an excuse for not accepting refugees.

To be honest if the city of Kiev had have fallen to the Russians we would be looking at a much worse situation in regards to displaced Ukrainians.

I don't think you will have many highly skilled staying in other countries,

Most have stayed to support there fight against Russia.

Sadly the majority that are seeking help are women children the old and the sick.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118960647#Comment_118960647

Imagine if Boards was American during the famine.

Or if Boards was American or British during the 80s when we didn't even have a war to blame.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118960647#Comment_118960647

It would have been alright. Same for Hungarian refugees in the 1950's. We only took a handful and moved them on as quick as possible. Same for the Vietnamese "Boat People" crisis. We again only took a handful(200 IIRC) and only after some international pressure. They wouldn't fit in, we can't afford them etc. All of which was wrongheaded. The problem over the last 30 years since the Church got the heave ho as our master in many ways we've gone to the other extreme. Took a rightful swing away from heavy conservatism and overswung to show ourselves and very much others just how far we've come. Will they fit in this time, can we afford them this time?

The more measured approach would have been to cap at 10,000, and yes vet those coming in, which per head of capita would keep us comfortably ahead of other EU nations outside of places like Poland. Spend on humanitarian aid closer to the source and within the source and help out nations like Poland and refugees there and within Ukraine. Put our surfeit of NGO's closer to the ground and fund them to do their work. Opening up with few controls with no cap with the potential to have 40 or 50,000 coming here, on full benefits and medical cards and driving licenses(which make eff all sense on so many levels save for the optics), but with no plan in place to house and integrate so many after the warm fuzzies have worn off.

And those warm fuzzies will wear off soon enough. Not just among the Irish people either, but also among the Ukrainian refugees. For the former the perception of them getting ahead of local people in housing lists and the like, even the hint from an airhead like McEntee regarding private property won't sit well for long, for the latter women and kids stuck in sports halls won't sit well for long either.

As for hindsight? Nope, nobody saw this coming to the degree it came. That's a given. However just three months ago the dogs on the street knew we had a major housing crisis, with insane rents etc going on, and the same dogs knew we had a major healthcare crisis going of for decades through successive "governments", one that was kicked squarely in the balls by a once in a lifetime pandemic, never mind the economic and societal and personal fallout from that.

We did know all of that without any need for hindsight, yet we jumped up and got mass amnesia literally overnight about it and ploughed on. If your house is on fire and you have it somewhat under control, you don't require any magic hindsight or foresight to know you don't add more wood. That the average bod and bodess on the street went along is completely understandable, but it's not understandable that those who are supposed to be in charge and should know what the hell is what went along with the same wave.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970395#Comment_118970395

Every country in Europe seems to have a housing and healthcare crisis mostly due to aging populations.

Your "caps" would just lead to every country leaving the Ukrainians to die on the Polish borders.

All this "put out NGOs on the border" is just right wing cop out bllsht for let them die somewhere else because I don't want my comfy life upset.

YFlyer

What is the difference with distance?

YFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118969905#Comment_118969905

Who knew?