Another hedge thread

DrPhilG

Hi all, I've browsed the search function and seen a few past threads on hedges but varying opinions. Thought I'd ask for myself.

I'm getting ready to flatten out and drain a large unkempt mess of ground behind my back fence. It's nearly a 3rd of an acre, and borders onto stables and farm yard. I had hoped to extend the front wall, but realistically that's a €20k plus job so it's out the window.

My wish list for a hedge:

* eventual aim is about 5-6ft high, and hopefully will get there as soon as possible so want something that will grow reasonably fast.

* I want a good thick hedge, something that will knit together well without gaps.

* evergreen preferable. I don't want to be sweeping up leaves all year!

* if it flowers that would be good, to break up the monotony of plain solid green in a 100m stretch.

* needs to be non toxic, I know some hedges can be harmful to livestock if eaten. There are sometimes horses next door so need to be wary of that.

That's all I can think of for now, any suggestions and sources welcome!

looksee

Hawthorn would tick all the boxes except evergreen, and would be very suitable to that situation. The leaves are very small and do not really make a mess, it has flowers and is pretty fast growing. With almost any hedge you would need to allow it to grow a bit freely - ie don't clip it into total submission if you want flowers.

Jim_Hodge

With horses next door they will browse most hedges and would limit your options. I'd go for hawthorn in that situation. They're only bare for a few months and even then are quite architectural. Planted as a staggered double row they thicken well and are a haven for wildlife.

MacDanger

Hawthorn with maybe a few holly, blackthorn or mountain ash thrown in. Would be cheapest if bought as bare root next Nov-Feb or so

DrPhilG

I'm hoping for something I can plant now, even if it's pretty low for this year.

DrPhilG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916763#Comment_118916763

There is a low fence there at the minute, which I might just leave in place to keep the horses at bay. Although they're not usually loose in there, but I wouldn't want to take the risk of one getting loose and being poisoned.

Another on the wish list, needs to withstand a fair bit of wind and frost.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118917900#Comment_118917900

We're still on Hawthorn so, 😀

looksee

Its too late for any bare root hedging at this stage, and if you have a fair distance to plant it would be a pity to spend unnecessary money on potted, especially something as easy as hawthorn. If you just happened to come across a nursery selling off end of winter bare root bushes I would nearly be inclined to chance it, its pretty hard to kill hawthorn.

DrPhilG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118918078#Comment_118918078

Excuse my ignorance, but do you mean that I can plant the potted version now, but not bare root?

I don't mind paying a bit extra for potted, bearing mind that the alternative to a hedge was a €20k+ wall lol.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118918014#Comment_118918014

If you didn't fancy the hawthorn you could always try a sceach hedge 🙂

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919291#Comment_118919291

In the winter months, you can buy and plant bare root hedging, which means it's sold without a pot; the roots are literally bare. It means they can be sold in bags of typically 100 and are a tiny fraction of the bulk and weight of buying plants in pots. You'd easily get them for well under a euro a plant at the volume you mentioned. The problem now is that as the buds have burst, you can't get them and the plants (if you can source them) could cost maybe ten times as much.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919295#Comment_118919295

Sceach is hawthorn? Did you mean blackthorn?

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919518#Comment_118919518

I think he's trying to be humorous.

maestroamado

Hawthorn is whitethorn and has red berries.... blackthorn has would you believe black berries called (sloes) for gin etc. I would also go with whitethorn. I planted some a few weeks ago and the guy i bought of said it was getting very late so i would leave.. When you do plant i would advise get small plants and cut close to the ground so as they spread and fill close to the ground and put in fairly close... the brown woody effect looks good in the winter...

macraignil

I think holly might be sold in pots and might be another option for the hedge. I'd also consider Darwin's barberry if you can find a nursery who can supply it. It also has prickly leaves to discourage grazing, is evergreen, looks good at the moment with nice bright flowers and is attractive to bees.

Happy gardening!

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919668#Comment_118919668

I would never have thought of holly for a hedge... is it very slow growing... i heard a friend once say you plant holly for your grandchildren...

looksee

You can buy potted plants and plant them any time of year, though spring and autumn are most advisable. Bare root are only supposed to be planted up to March as the leaves start to burst at that stage. You are looking at maybe 5 to 10 times the price for potted hawthorn as against bare root - you can even now buy bare root from the Garden Shop at €37 for 25 plants, while a single potted plant will cost you anything from €8 to €15 each. It would be mad to spend that much rather than wait until autumn.

If you were just planting an odd bare root shrub I would chance it even now (depending on the type) but the logisitics of getting in an entire hedge while keeping the plants in good condition would suggest it is not a good idea.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919684#Comment_118919684

Yes too slow and doesn't thicken very well.

MacDanger

I think an occasional holly in amongst a hawthorn hedge looks nice though

Billgirlylegs

What is the budget, and what is the timetable. It might be difficult to get potted hawthorn at any time, they are ideally used in rural settings rather than urban gardens.

as advised, hawthorn seems the best bet. Will eventually flower in Spring and bear berries later on. Maybe interspersed with holly for interest.

Both tough and hardy and withstand both neglect and hard trimming.

Multiple varieties of hawthorn as well

DrPhilG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118920517#Comment_118920517

Budget and timetable are unsure. I'm still waiting for some prices for dredging the wilderness. Septic tank is in that area too so that needs to be worked around.

I had in mind that fencing the area was going to cost a fair few grand so I suppose that would be my budget for a hedge.

Timetable, ASAP although I realise that my timing stinks. If I do manage to get the area flattened and sown, (how fast would a new lawn grow?) then I'd at least have the area laid in the next few months.

By the sound of things I'll have to live without any border until the end of the year.

Is hawthorn the only real option here?

looksee

I'd be reluctant to put in a lawn before the hedge. The lawn will not really be walkable till next summer even if you get it in in the next couple of weeks. You are saying the budget is several thousand, you can put in a good hedge for under a thousand even at the most generous estimate. Why go out of your way to spend more than you need. How long a length of hedgerow are you thinking of?

Do you want the final thing to look relaxed or tightly trimmed? That will dictate a bit what you should get. There are other options, berberis is one (not the red one, it is not vigorous enough to make a decent sized hedge) Berberis Darwinii is the one for hedging. I think it looks a bit rank (dark and uninspiring) as it gets older unless it is hard pruned on a rotation basis. Well kept it can be very attractive with bright yellow flowers. The alternative to a hawthorn hedge would be a mixed hedge including hawthorn, guelder rose, holly, and some small trees like crab apple and rowan. This would only need minimal cutting but would have a more shaggy appearance.

DrPhilG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118921509#Comment_118921509

The budget was a max, not a target. I just mean that it's not too strict a budget as its going need a hell of a lot less than a wall. I'm not going out of my way to spend more than I need.

The length of hedge will be around 90-100m.

I want a tightly trimmed hedge, rather than the relaxed option.

looksee

In that case you can more or less forget flowers, its extremely difficult to keep trimming a hedge and still have flowers. You might consider https://futureforests.ie/collections/hedging/products/elaeagnus-x-ebbingei - elaeagnus makes a lovely hedge, is evergreen, can be close trimmed and as far as I can see is not toxic to horses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_plants_poisonous_to_equines

macraignil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118920788#Comment_118920788

I suggested holly as it is sold as hedging plants in pots in a nursery close to me and in spite of what a poster above has said I see lots of pictures on a google image search for holly hedge that look well to me. I only have a couple of variegated ones which are in less than ideal growing conditions so their growth rate would not be the same as the ones sold for hedging which are priced at either 3euro or 4.50euro each depending on size. I think if you are ignoring my suggestion of Darwin's barberry which I mentioned with holly as you said you wanted to discourage grazing horses, then the recent suggestion of Ebbing's silverberry by Looksee could be nice and the couple I have planted look well and I think I will try propagate some from cuttings this year to make some more. Since you describe keeping the hedge fairly small and tightly clipped then maybe the box-leaved honeysuckle might be another option but not grown this myself.

Happy gardening!

DrPhilG

Thanks everyone.

Quick question, one of the neighbours told me that he thinks there is "blue clay" underneath that wilderness area.

What does that mean?

EDIT - just educated myself on blue clay lol. Won't know the situation until I do the digging I suppose.

MacDanger

Copper beech might be an option if you don't fancy hawthorn?

DrPhilG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118924842#Comment_118924842

Nah, wifey wants something green.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925029#Comment_118925029

Oddly enough i spent the last 6 months thinking about this and like you wanted green... i half said this before but if you put in plenty of whitethorn plants you end up with nice tight green hedge in summer and thick cluster of brown branches in winter... i like the summer and winter different looks... plant no more than 30 cm (1ft) apart...

Check out pergola nurseries on Instagram, he does an evergreen hedge called 'Coral Berry'. It's a Cotoneaster hybrid that grows thick from the bottom, is evergreen, flowers, has berries and is fast growing. It's evergreen so only sold from pots but are cheap enough and if you're buying bulk he'd probably give a discount. I planted it a few months back so far so good. Link below

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CandZGbNQah/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

looksee

That link doesn't seem to be working but there is a fb link here https://www.facebook.com/PergolaNurseriesGardenCorner/videos/1203080576835372/

DrPhilG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118928767#Comment_118928767

Looks nice, and the flower/Berry mix hits the spot.

But in another video he said that it would form a good hedge in 3-4 years?

How much did you pay for them? Only thing I could find on his website was €10 which for a single pot would be pretty pricey.

brokenangel

Beech is a favourite for what you are asking for or hornbeem depending on the ground but expensive now

Whitetorn etc I refused to plant around my house after spending a childhood busting football etc on them

DrPhilG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929101#Comment_118929101

Yeah beech seems to tick a lot of boxes, I can get a 3-4ft bare root plant for €3.50 and plant in October. So even if I do staggered 2 line hedge, that would be 180 plants, so €630.

The website says they grow up to 2ft a year.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929334#Comment_118929334

Get loads of chicken poo and throw it around them, I had very poor grow till I fed them

Bogwoppit

Portuguese laurel would tick a lot of your boxes, can be bought in pots easy enough.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929334#Comment_118929334

A couple of copper beech mixed in as well is a nice touch

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929085#Comment_118929085

You're in for a rude awakening if you think you'll have a decent hedge of any kind in less than 3 or 4 years.

macraignil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929334#Comment_118929334

Beech is not evergreen but does hold its leaves over winter and is a good plant for hedging, but it is known for not liking wet ground. If that is the case as could be with the description earlier in the thread of blue clay being found in the soil you might be better off planting hornbeam as it can tolerate wet soils better than beech. Just to give an idea of the time taken for a hedge to develop I posted some videos of one I planted a few years back of hornbeam and white thorn. I think throwing lots of chicken manure on the new hedge would encourage weeds more than help the hedge plants and the best way to keep the hedge developing well in my opinion is just to reduce the weed competition in the early stages.

Happy gardening!

DrPhilG

I can live a 3-4 year time frame on a proper big thick hedge, just having the whole area flattened and turned into a proper lawn is a good enough start. Even if it's a crappy hedge for a few years it will still provide a decent boundary.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930271#Comment_118930271

Decent looking hedge. Is there a method with Hawthorn where you bend the sapling over and tie the down or intertwine the leading growth to the base of their neighbouring sapling in order to thicken the base of the hedge?

macraignil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930730#Comment_118930730

It has thickened up fairly well now alright. What you describe sounds a bit like laying a hedge which I thought was more a process done on more matured hedges where the height of the hedge plants has allowed some gaps to develop. I think there are lots of variations on the process in different localities and probably some techniques that have been now forgotten. The mature hedge on one side of where I live that was planted by the girlfriend's da had some of the young plants tied in various positions using plastic string that has ended up cutting into and damaging the hedge plants in places and taken a bit of effort to cut out where it has started to look unsightly so I'd avoid this method anyway. Some would advocate cutting down the young saplings fairly drastically when planted and this should encourage more bushy growth from lower down on the plants. I could see this on the odd one I had planted that had the top half of the plant cut down by mistake but the problem with this is you loose a lot of height in your hedge plant early on so it may need more work then to control tall growing weeds.

My own plan to try deal with the odd hedge gap that might develop around here is to propagate some of the Ebbing's silverberry which is said to work well in this situation where filling gaps between trees may be required.

Happy gardening!

looksee

Its called laying a hedge, you partially cut the main stem a couple of feet off the ground and lay it sideways all in the same direction so the new shoots grow up and create a stock proof hedge. Its probably a bit overkill for a domestic boundary. If the bushes are kept cut down as they grow you will get a similar enough effect. Laying a hedge is a serious old craft. I doubt the op's desire for a big hedge will allow him to do the necessary pruning so he will probably end up with a rather tall and straggly hedge, the opposite of what he wants.

We put in a short escallonia hedge and my husband flatly refused to have it cut back as it grew, so eventually it had to be dug out again after about 5 years of looking scruffy.

maestroamado

Just to add you said animals yard... it would may be an ides some fencing in the hedge as they aren't really stock proof...

Just thought i would say...

DrPhilG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931663#Comment_118931663

Yeah I'm planning on leaving the existing boundary fence in place, and planting the fence inside.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931807#Comment_118931807

The reason i am saying is i made the mistake and no matter what you do there will be holes in hedge... if you put sheep wire onto the existing fence when the fence rots in about 100 years there be fence in the hedge...

DrPhilG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931981#Comment_118931981

Yeah sorry I should have clarified, I'm going to put wire onto that fence. We have a miniature JR so I use a fine mesh wire down the fence at the side of the front garden. I'll do the same around the back.

Something that guided me when we started our hedge was this:

https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/crops/forestry/advice/stockproofhedge.establishment.factsheet_2.pdf

My favourite parts of our hedge now is the Guelder rose (not actually a rose) and the dog rose’s beautiful colour, scent and large hips (great for birds don’t plant too much!) and the hazel for its nuts in autumn. All very wildlife friendly as I usually drone on about 😅!

What we found helpful when planting our hedge was we planted it in underlay covered with bark chips and added a short wooden border to separate it from our lawn (not sure if this was entirely necessary but we felt it gave the hedge a good start). The underlay was only a temporary solution for the first 2 years to suppress the worst of the competing weeds, now that it’s established we don’t care what grows under it.

As for pruning, we only paid close attention for the first two years, we pruned in the shape of a triangle or capital A as advices by Teagasc above. Now we just trim to shape in late autumn early winter.

Bare root is definitely the way to go as many before have said. It took us about 3-4 years to get a good established hedge.

We have heavy blue clay here too, hawthorn does seem to thrive here, as does hazel and holly.

You mentioned non toxic plants for live stock? I’d stand clear of yew and Laurel.