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Shared safe OK?

  • 26-02-2022 3:15pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,234 ✭✭✭


    I have a shotgun and .22 rifle which I am licensed for and my son also has licenses for these. I have an FCA1 in for a second .22 rifle and I planned to keep this in the same safe. My son will not have a license for the new rifle (at least not at first), so do I need to keep this rifle in a separate safe when I have my license? He will have access to the current safe so he can access the firearms he is licensed on and ideally I would upgrade to a larger safe for both of us, rather than having 2 separate safes.

    For clarity, he has a full license for both firearms and has the "s" for the rifle.

    Stay Free



Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,420 ✭✭✭garrettod


    Hi,

    I'm open to correction, but I think you'll both need to be jointly licenced on everything that's in the same safe.

    Anything that you are not jointly licensed on, needs to be stored seperately.

    Based on your current arrangements, it may be cheaper to jointly licence the additional 22, rather than have to buy another safe (well, in the short term, anyway).

    Thanks,

    G.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    It varies by district, but in general shared safes are fine so long as a keyholder cannot use a firearm they don't have a licence for.


    So you and I have guns in the same safe, with trigger locks to prevent the other from using guns that aren't theirs.


    Simpler and cheaper than 2 safes.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,988 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I agree with the above. Trigger lock on the solo licensed firearms is easiest way forward..



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,234 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Trigger lock seems to be the way to go then. Thanks lads.

    Stay Free



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,596 ✭✭✭Feisar


    If a trigger lock is adequate to prevent the use of a firearm by a person who doesn't have a licence for said firearm, why the need for a safe at all? I'm asking this from a pedants point of view.

    First they came for the socialists...



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    The point is for storage according to the legislation they have to be stored in a safe.

    Have safe, box ticked, so to speak.

    From a practicality point of view, since the firearms are stored safely by the legislation the only thing the guards then look for subsequent to that for multiple owner's guns in one safe is that they cannot be used by another person who has access to the safe(ie licence holders).


    The supposed idea of the storage being to prevent the nefarious part of the public from easily gaining access, but as firearm owners, since a criminal past or certain misdeeds would exempt you from firearms ownership, I think their reasoning being that unvetted people don't have access to the safe, and only those vetted people can access their particular guns in the safe.

    A trigger lock isn't the only way to go either, a ramshackle chain through trigger guards and a padlock are also not uncommon in shared safes, really anything that prevents a licenced, but not on those guns, keyholder from using those guns is all they are looking for, which is a rare bit of common sense in the interpretation of our gun laws.


    The alternative is one safe per person, which in Ghosts's case here would be pretty asinine to insist on.

    Not saying it isn't a future project for another ministerial muppet, but at least not for the time being.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,527 ✭✭✭Vizzy


    Here we are back to the non clarity of the Firearms legislation !!

    This is an extract from SI 307 of 2009 which relates to the Secure storage of firearms ( it is repeated in the Commissioners guidelines)

    "One non-restricted shot-gun.

    The shot-gun shall be disassembled and each part shall be stored securely and separately when not in use. The trigger housing shall be secured against use with an appropriate trigger lock.


    One restricted firearm or three or fewer non-restricted firearms.

    Each firearm shall be stored securely in a gun safe which complies with BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure."

    Now, it mentions a trigger lock for a shotgun, but nothing for a rifle.

    So, if the 2 rifles are stored in one safe, is a trigger lock sufficient to satisfy the requirements or

    are you exceeding the requirements (i.e. both rifles are in a safe and you have provided extra security by putting a trigger lock on one of them ?

    Maybe I'm over thinking this, but its not dissimilar to the situation regarding the zeroing of a rifle outside a range.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    No, the law is clear, you need to meet the minimum requirements set out, ie stored in a safe for a rifle.

    However to prevent another person who isn't licenced on your firearm from using it the law is mum in regards to requirements, bar preventing that person, so the implementation is down to the individual/CPO/district to spec out a reasonable solution.

    Trigger lock for multiple owner's guns in the same safe is one of the cheapest and easiest, but not the only.

    A chain and padlock, a bolt stored elsewhere under another key which only a licenced person has access to would also be doable, even if it was only in a desk drawer for example as the firearm itself is housed within the safe storage requirements.

    Only limited in the implementation by your imagination and what your CPO is alright with.


    Firearms law is pretty damn stupid, and generally designed to be awkward for those who have to navigate it, but here it is actually at one of it's clearest points:

    1 - Safe storage by firearm type(just follow the legislative minimums or the district/division's policy),

    2 - Unauthorised users cannot use firearms they don't have access to(similar to the policy thing above but lacking a policy anything that accomplishes this goes).

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,988 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    It’s a fair question. No harm taking a harsh initial view to make sure you are in the right side of the law.

    While it doesn’t apply here, a trigger guard is a permitted way to store a single non-restricted shotgun without a safe.

    The legal requirement for 3 or fewer non-restricted firearms is a safe. Which OP complied with.

    The issue is access to the 3rd firearm. Which I don’t think is specifically covered. The trigger guard solution is a bit of a hybrid of the two cases above. The argument being you are only locking out one person, the works is locked out by the safe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭The pigeon man


    I feel that this is being made out to be more complicated than it is.

    I have never had an issue sharing a safe. Do not mention it and a problem is unlikely to arise.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BSA International


    There's never a problem ..

    ... until there's a problem ..... and then you could loose your sport :(

    Always better to be safe than sorry I reckon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭The pigeon man


    Absolutely I agree. Given that the legislation does not stipulate the need for a separate safe, I would just share the safe unless the super raises an issue.



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