Power of Attorney

Crash Bang Wall

Just wondering how Power of Attorney plays out in the real world. I signed to have Power of Attorney for my mother, who has Alzheimers in the event of my fathers death. He died just after Christmas.....at the time I didnt do any research into it, and now I just want to know how it works in the real world. The solicitor gave the no cash expenses, document everything etc. In our case there is some level of cash expenses in that we require carers at times were agencies wont provide (6am, after 6pm at times etc) and the only way we can get carers to cover them hours is cash in hand, which is far from ideal. Just wondering how much of a role to the Courts play in reality. There is money there, and we had family discussions about Mam being properly looked after etc, and Dad was adamant that if he passed before her, that the money they had was to be used. Ive no issue putting in money of my own, but Im saving for a mortgage so cash is reasonably tight. Any advice/experiences welcome

whippet

i think what you need is enduring power of attorney... which would have involved a solicitor to have the process completed.

so speak with your solicitor about what your rights and responsibilities are .. they would be best placed to advise you

Peregrinus

If his mother is already demented, it's too late to get an enduring power of attorney; she lacks the capacity to grant one.

But my reading of the OP is that he already has an enduring power of attorney, granted (presumably) by his mother when she still had the necessary mental capacity. The question he is asking is whether he can use her money to make payments with no documentation or vouchers. The payments will be for her benefit (to pay for carers to look after her) but because the payments will be in cash and off the books there will be no way to show that the money was spent for her benefit, if a question is later asked about that. His question is what legal risk he faces in spending her money in this way.

The question is predicated on the assumption that agencies who work through the books won't provide carer e.g. at night. But my experience is that they will; at one point we had 24-hour care for my father, and later on just night care (so that my mother could sleep). This was on the books, invoiced, etc.

Crash Bang Wall

Cheers for the replies, we are not looking for 24 hour care as the money quite simply isnt there for that. Its literally 6am to about 7pm most days....the getting someone from 6-8 in the morning is the most problematic. Not Dublin based so there is not many agencies to chose from. We are happy among the us to stay nights in the house with Mam, we have some hours covered by HSE during the day so its the few hours early morning if the person staying has to leave for work etc etc, and a few hours in the evening. From what I can gather from talking to some of the agencies is that they would be better able to facilitate if they were asked to provide a carer for a full day rather than a few hours here and there.

Im sure we will figure it out, its week to week at the minute, I suppose my main question would be how strict are the courts in relation to looking over your shoulder so to speak, do they do random checks/audits etc etc

The solictor has been fine, but the advice is no cash, document everything...the reality, at the minute is, that is not possible. We want to avoid Nursing Homes for as long as possible

whippet

that make sense OP - you have to remember that you are spending someone else's money - and you need to be in a position to stand over where it went to etc .. cash isn't a good idea without backup as to what it was spent on.

Something that stuck out to me 'we want to avoid nursing homes for as long as possible' - I was in the very same position (but I never managed to get EPOA over my mother in time) ... we initially wanted to keep her at home for a long as possible - until it became impossible and looking back I would have loved to have done it differently and looked at residential care earlier. The stress it caused taking shifts keeping and eye on mam along with the insecurity of not knowing what we were doing was right and the risk of something happening ... once she did get in to residential care it was a relief all round - she is in a happy, caring and comfortable place. We know that her needs are being met 24/7 and to a level we just couldn't have managed. ---- what I am saying is think about in a long term way

Peregrinus

The courts are not proactive here - they're unlikely to be "looking over your shoulder" unless someone complains or asks questions. But practically anyone with an interest in or concern for your mother's welfare could complain or ask questions, as could - I am sorry to be direct here - anyone with an interest or expectation of inheriting from her. The more of her money is spent, the less there is to inherit.

The priority here has to be your mother's safety, welfare and happiness. If she needs a carer, she needs a carer. So you will do what you have to do. To minimise the risk, I suggest:

1. Create your own paper trail. Keep a ledger in which you record (1) all the cash withdrawals from your mother's account, and (2) all the payments you make with that cash - the date of each payment, the amount, the name of the person to whom it is paid, and a note of the date and hours of care to which the payment relates. If you are making payments for things other than carers, include details of those payments too. The record of cash withdrawals will tally with the same record on your mother's bank statement, so can be verified. That will go a long way to helping you show, if you have to, that when you spent your mother's money you were spending it for her benefit.
2. Keep everyone who might have an interest (i.e. family members, your mother's close friends) in the loop. Let there be no suggestion that you did this secretly or covertly. Let them all know that you are using your mother's money to pay for carers for her; answer any questions they might have; show them the ledger you are keeping, if they want to see it. Listen to any suggestions they may have. The more open you are, the less likely anyone is to get suspicious about what you are at. And, if they know all along what you are doing, and they don't object to it at the time, they'll get a much frostier reception in court if they do complain about it later. (You don't have to make a production of this, or appear defensive; you can just let people know, when keeping them up to speed about your mother's condition, about the care arrangements.)

Crash Bang Wall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118689142#Comment_118689142

Thanks a million, the paper trail is pretty much a given, Ive basically told everyone that receipts are required for everything. All of us are in regular contact and in agreement on pretty much everything. The biggest issue is the cash expenses where we have no receipts, but again, everyone knows how much these are likely to be per month, so the issues here should be limited. Complaints etc are unlikely so hopefully we will be left alone. I have no intention of using the money there for anything other than caring for Mam, and having food in the house for carers or whoever is staying. Technically we are not required to provide food for them, but in reality, we all agree that its only fair. They cant be expected to cook for Mam and then cook their own stuff for themselves if there all day

Peregrinus

Even though you're not getting receipts for the cash expenditure, keep a ledger of the cash expenditure. Even if not vouched with receipts, it will go a long way towards establishing your good faith and good intentions, and backing up with plausible detail your claim that, when you spent your mother's money, you were doing so for her benefit.