New Farmer Advice

youngfarmer93

Hi, I currently gone sale agreed on approx. 17acres of land which also has 6 acres of rough shrub/bog land. The lot will be purchased for approx. €85k - its marginal land in west of Ireland hence 5k an acre. This will be my only land for now as I will look to purchase an an joining farm (30 good acres with sheds) to this land in a couple years down the road hence my interest in it. My question is as a brand new farmer on paper (grew up on a farm and starting the greencert later this year), what are the best way to farm this land for grants until I can purchase the other farm. I will likely buy enough sheep to meet minimum requirements for stocking units. I will be getting an agriculture advisor shortly once the deal is finalised but wanted to do some research fist myself. So I have a couple of Qs?

• There's no entitlements on this land, but once I complete greencert can I apply for entitlements? If so will this only apply for the 17acres of grass land or can it be claimed on the shrub areas.
• The 6 acres of rough shrubs does it qualify for any grants in its current condition i.e unusable - I know best for environment/wildlife to keep as is but just wondering options as is or does it need to be reclaimed.
• The 6 acres of shrubs should I look to reclaim before or after I look for BPS/Greening is their a best order to complete this in, wasn't sure were you allow to reclaim under certain grants so is the loophole for me to do it all before looking for herd number and grants.
• Any grants in particular I should look for for starting out. - At moment I wont look for capital grants as the other farm has all the buildings needed and would prefer new buildings on that farmyard in a couple years.
• GLAS scheme will this reopen again for new farmers like myself, under this would the shrub land as is count for anything or very much redundant.
• Finally any other advice in general would be greatly appreciated

minerleague

Glas should reopen 2023 ( all existing extended to Dec 22), You'll need a flock no. (sheep) / herd no. from Dept. of Ag. Think you might need basic handling facilities on land for this (maybe mobile unit might do ) You say no entitlements but does land have parcel numbers ( did someone apply for single farm payment on it before now and maybe sell entitlements ? ) If so might be easier to copy what was in before. Up to now you would only get entitlements for the 17 acres but talk of new CAP seems to suggest not as strict on excluding scrub areas. Wouldn't reclaim the 6 acres as probably worth more in payments than value as farmland after costs. Finally are you inheriting the 30 acres ? as you seem sure of buying it ( dont have to answer that )

youngfarmer93

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118665691#Comment_118665691

Thanks Minerleague, yes I will look to get a flock no. and expect no issues, as I will build a handling facilities there and also has an old shed on the parcel thats in good condition so minimal work needed here. It was through the estate agent i learned no entitlements are on it, is there a way I can check was their previous entitlements on it? how would you find out if it had parcel numbers? when you say easier to copy what was in it before, does this mean applying for entitlements in my own name but seeking the value that was originally on it. the previous owner never had stock, so it would of been let to grow wild or short term lease with neighbouring farmers nothing really ever formal from my understanding. On the other lands, no i wont be inheriting, but i have looked at demographics of the village, not too many young farmers have any interest, also the ones that do all have purchased alot in last 2 years so would be considered tight for money to purchase this additional farm that will now sit between my 17 acres and my fathers 40 acre farm. So it leaves me tbh, it is extended family land that they want to sell, and because its originally family i wont let anyone else in on it, i know its not my brain talking but me and my wife are fortunate enough to be on two very good jobs with no debt atoll.

minerleague

Agriculture advisor should be able to look up if land had been applied on before. By copying I mean all parcels have a "gross area " and " net area " in the system ( scrub and buildings area subtracted ) If you apply for new entitlements you get average payment, you may also qualify for young farmer top-up ( not sure of details here )

WhichWay

It muggy be worth taking to an ag advisor. My concern is that you are only a new young farmer once. If you register a herd or flock number now and only actively farm in 6 years time you might not qualify for some benifit. E.g. 60% tams and entitlements.

Perhaps if you are over 35 (41 for tams) this advise doesn't matter.

On the other side it might help you to get agri relief if you inherit land. If you have a good house with no mortgage and 2 nice car plus other non farm assets you might not qualify.

roosterman71

Teagasc are now saying that drainage of peaty soil should be avoided. Not sure if you could be stopped from doing it but one to be aware of anyway

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/teagasc-further-drainage-of-peat-soils-cannot-be-justified/

Dickie10

is the land you intend buying going to be sold by private treaty? if it is going public auction dont be too naive to think an outsider wont swoop in and buy it.

hopeso

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118675497#Comment_118675497

I was thinking the same thing.. You never know who'll turn up on the day to buy it. Even worse, someone knowing full well that you're not going to let it go might take pleasure in bidding it up. Best thing to do if you thought that was happening is to let it fall to them....

youngfarmer93

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118673757#Comment_118673757

Thanks for this, that was my thoughts too, but what i was considering and i may be wrong here, any reclaim work i would do before getting flock number/ grants, as in one way they wouldnt be able to do anything against me i.e with hold grants. Again dont know will i go down the route of reclaiming more and likely wait untill CAP2023 to see options.

youngfarmer93

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118675552#Comment_118675552

Thanks Both, your both 100% correct, there no guarantee with anything in life. but i would say i have 80-90% odds securing it, if i was a betting man, it is extended family, and have had discussion that when he ready to retire/sell that i would buy directly. And he is keen to keep in family Surname name (yes i come from an very old fashion family). I know a lot can change when money is involved, but in worst case scenario i am unable to buy it, these 17 acres are down one field over from my fathers place anyway. So there's a back up farm very close by, but ideally i would purchase it and there would be nearly 100acres all joining.

youngfarmer93

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118669443#Comment_118669443

Thank you, i am only 28 and will have the greencert fully completed by 30, can i ask whats the difference between Young farmer 35 limit and the Tams at 60% (41) i know TAMS is the capital investment so this is i can make capital improvements and receive 60% grant up to the age of 41?, what entitlements (benefits) do i have upto the age of 35. Apologies all these grants are new to me and find them confusing to get my head around.

As i will have the land fully in my name in approx 2-3months just waiting on final paper work to be signed over, would I in one way be better off to rent it (i.e. to my Father) and wait till i am 30 to start farming in my own right. Allowing me 1) have more capital on my disposal, 2) possible more land in my own name 3) havnt used up any of my 5 years as a young farmer

Hopefully these arnt stupid Qs, and i know i need to arrange a meeting with a Ag Advisor, but i always wanted to my research prior to going.

hopeso

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118678352#Comment_118678352

If it's a direct sale between family, you're fairly safe alright. Good luck with it all...

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118666977#Comment_118666977

The issue with there having been entitlements on it before might be that you can't establish entitlements on land which has been made naked for the purpose of establishing new entitlements. It's probably fine if it was bought, but I don't know for sure.

OP, as someone above said, you can only be a new farmer once. Although you can't necessarily count on buying the other farm. Even if you have deep pockets, someone else might be willing to pay stupid money for it.

youngfarmer93

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118678734#Comment_118678734

Thank you, may i ask when you say you can only be a new farmer once, what is the concern here, is it i am starting too small and wont be getting fully benefits as a young farmer?

May be a stupid Q - and just hypotactically In an ideal world someone with Greencert at age 30, can get access to say up to 100acres and has relative access to capital if needed. What steps or scenarios would you recommend to do or in what order Sorry if its a stupid Question, just i see alot saying im only a young farmer once and if i used this example i could pick what suits me best.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118679036#Comment_118679036

You have certain benefits for the first 5 years (stock relief etc). But also, as a new entrant, you can establish entitlements from the national reserve. You might hear about people talking about "old young farmers" which really means farmers who are still young, but have been farming for more than 5 years. So they aren't young farmers anymore (a lad who starts as 20 and sets up, won't be a young farmer anymore at 25 whereas a lad who is starting up at 34 will be a young farmer)

In terms of establishing entitlements, you apply to the national reserve. As a young farmer, you might be able to establish entitlements at the national average. (You also get a top-up of 25% on all entitlements for those 5 years, regardless of how you obtain them). My understanding is that if you applies today on your 17 acres, and you came into another 83 acres in 2 years, then you've already used up your application if you know what I mean. You can't add in the the 83 for the remaining 3 years. Whereas if you had waited for the 2 years, you could have put in all 100 acres together and got it on all 100.

Am open to correction on the above, but that is my general understanding.

minerleague

Does the 30 acres you intend to buy have entitlements? ( and your fathers 40 ) If so you wont need to apply to the national reserve for entitlements for these plots anyway. I wouldn't rent out the land, if you need a loan in future ( land purchase, build a house/shed ) it would look better to a bank to show history of buying this land, stocking it and ( hopefully ) making a profit. By all means be aware of grants etc. but dont let them be the only factor in any decisions.

youngfarmer93

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118681713#Comment_118681713

Yes my fathers 40 acres and other 30 acres my relation plans on selling all have full entitlements so its the only the 17acres plus 6acres of shrubs there's no entitlements which is the one I'm gone sale agreed on. When I mention renting it would be ultimately to my father as if I thought it would delay me becoming on paper a young farmer as i know have age on my side for it, which would buy me time to remain a young farmer for longer until i could get the other deals further along, Like as i said i am really at gathering information stage and then will formulate the best plan of action for me but thank you for all the help as it has helped me to think of the different options/consequences.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118685781#Comment_118685781

Best of luck with it