Opinons on this gradient

Muahahaha

Just looking at a planned greenway and seeking opinions on this gradient and if it is too steep for too long. It is 820 metres in length during which time it rises 33 metres. If my calculation isnt wrong it represents a gradient of just over 4%.

I know everyone here could get up a hill like that no problems. But what are opinions as to whether the main users of this section could get up it. i.e could a 12 year old child do it, could an adult in their 40s who may not have cycled in 20+ years do it? Users would be of average fitness but some not of that level.

I was looking at TII guidance on greenway construction and they state the preferred maximum gradient is 3% and if it has to go over that it should only be for sections of 100m or less. However this section is 820m long so multiples of that. I think a lot of people who dont normally cycle will struggle to cycle up such a hill and would end up walking but want to hear others opinions on it.

jamesd

Should be no real issue - I have a 7 year old that could do it , complains but she can do it.

magicbastarder

yeah, that's a steep enough climb up that gradient - put it this way, when i tried the 'climb as much as you can in one hour effort' a year or two ago, it was on a climb with a similar gradient (68m in 1.55km)

Macy0161

My understanding is that the gradient isn't just a concern going uphill, but also the speeds that can be achieved downhill, particularly if a shared path.

magicbastarder

another comparison - it's obviously shorter than the howth hill TT on strava - but that howth segment rises at just under 30m per km. the section described above rises at just under 40m per km. could be difficult if you've any health issues or are unfit.

TheBlaaMan

Greenways build on decommissioned railway lines are really at the mercy of the engineers of the 1850s. In most cases, steam trains didnt/couldnt get up a gradient greater than 3% as I understand it. Not too sure if this is the scenario here, but I can well understand the safety issues associated with a -4% descent for the non-cyclist......

Muahahaha

This greenway isnt along an old railway alignment but is a mountainous area in parts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565097#Comment_118565097

yeah thats actually the other problem and what is worse is the end of this 820m hill is a dog leg bend approx 25 metres before it ends in a T junction that meets a busy road. It is steep enough in that section and I can already see a child hurtling down there and not knowing what is ahead around the bend regardless of signage. If they are not heavily on their brakes at that point there is a real danger they go right out into traffic.

Reason Im asking all this is that there is an alternative route close by that goes down the same hill but it is a much gentler gradient over a longer distance. Im not sure why the council have choosen a route that goes up and down the hill in the steepest way possible but thats what their plans are at the moment.

That 4% is average gradient though right?

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565517#Comment_118565517

Yeah the 4% is over the entire 820 metres. It is probably 5% in some parts and 3% in others. While experienced cyclists could get up it I doubt everyone can and most of the use will be by non experienced cyclists.

mad turnip

Can you post the proposed route?

I would imagine the gradient may have just been an oversight but a very valid point depending on the route particularly for 1km. But wouldn't a greenway be separated from traffic? I do think a 4% consistent climb for 1km is better than 20% for a shorter period if that is the alternative. They can always use an alternate surface to slow riders coming down, on a downhill 4% isn't that much considering casual cyclists don't pedal and just coast along.

There is a segment near me advertised at 3.2% for about 1km but I could easily hit 50 on (downhill) with little effort. I think at it's steepest it's 11% certainly feels it riding or even walking up it.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565302#Comment_118565302

I think that pedestrians and cyclist should be separated when speeds above 30kph can be reasonably predicted, but I don't know whether that's best practice or rules or guidance. Just going on submissions I've seen elsewhere.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565774#Comment_118565774

yeah greenways normally separated from traffic but not this section, it is shared with cars and tractors coming in and out of a couple of farm gates. There are several houses along the hill too with driveways going out onto the road. Im not sure how they intend separating it from traffic, maybe a kerb between the two or maybe it will just be paint and a different surface. Kerbing isnt an option for all of it due to the driveways from houses so its likely just going to be paint and a different surface for the cycle lane.

The alternative route to this 33m over 820m distance (4%) is approx 2km to achieve the same hill climb so about half the gradient. Both routes end up in the same place but the currently planned one is a lot steeper to get up and getting down it would increase speed a lot unless they are heavily on the brakes for a good bit of it. A lot of users would be families with children, many of whom wont be experienced cyclists.

Anyway thanks all for the opinions, I'll be making a submission suggesting they use the alternative route. Its just too dodgy to be sending children and inexperienced cyclists down such a steep hill with a bend at the end and then a T junction going straight out onto a major road, it sounds like a recipe for disaster especially when there is a viable alternative that is a lot safer.

ARX

I may be wrong (I've never used a greenway), but I would guess that many of the bikes on a greenway would have somewhat less than scrupulously maintained brakes.

Large bottle small glass

I'd imagine without Irish Rail wayleave and a license to Local Authorities, getting a Greenway route is really problematic.

You only need one awkward landowner to break your heart.

That could be influencing their decision.

Along with risks mentioned I'd include wheelchair users and users with general ambulatory issues in your observation.

Maybe include an observation that insuring a Greenway with such design flaws, contrary to TII guidance, might make project unviable in the long term

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566460#Comment_118566460

In this instance 95% of the greenway runs across public land, not owned by Irish Rail but by the ESB. Its the Blessington greenway which is just starting to go through planning with ABP at the moment. Thankfully most of the 33km route runs along the shore of the lake so is pretty flat and will be wheelchair accessible for many kilometres. Though Im not sure what they are surfacing it with, the technical specification is beyond my understanding of how it will look. I'll be submitting a suggestion to use tarmac for my own selfish reasons (I cycle a road bike with skinny tyres) but AFAIK previous plans spoke about hardcore and some sort of loose gravel on top meaning you would likely need a hybrid bike to cycle it without discomfort.

Youre right to say they are really difficult to do across private land though. The Mayo greenway took 12 years start to finish with the last few years being held up by a handful of landowners. The same went on in Kerry, iirc it was 256 landowners there and less than 10 held it up. I think the courts ruled against them last year so its going ahead but the battle added years on to delivering it

Roadtoad

Can anyone pull up the climb/drop on the Achill greenway quite near the Westport end? Her indoors walked up, we both sat on the brakes coming down as there was a big party of pedestrians about.

Its probably a good comparison, but without a chicane and a public road.

magicbastarder

is this it?

https://www.strava.com/segments/10170282

Roadtoad

Magic, I'm more inclined to think its the bit from your chequered flag toward the roundabout.

I've family who did the Westport one and I remember them telling me they rounded a bit of a bend and got caught out in terms of gearing and got off and walked up, wouldn't be experienced cyclists but if what they said was accurate I'd have maybe been caught out a bit too.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568195#Comment_118568195

yeah - that does look more like it

https://www.strava.com/segments/5250298

9% average, maxing out at 20%!

Roadtoad

OP, take it that the suggested slope is fine, based on the Achill info that Magic posted. Unless there's uisce faoi talamh. Cyclists of all abilities don't mind the odd walk, it adds to the bragging rights. Gates at the end will force people to dismount before the road.

loyatemu

there's a bit of the Great Western Greenway at Mulranny that's like a wall, but it's only 50m or so. I'm a regular cyclist around Wicklow, I still struggled to get up it and was hauling on the brakes on the way back going down it.

There's a fairly long hill on the way into Dungarvan on the Waterford Greenway, though as that's a former railway alignment I guess it's not anything like 4%.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568372#Comment_118568372

i don't think that the idea that because it was used elsewhere, it's fine for a new greenway, is very portable though.

what if it's preventing people with limited mobility from using it?

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568246#Comment_118568246

I think I vaguely remember that section on the Westport greenway, iirc it went around a left bend followed quickly by a right one and up a steep section to go behind someones house. I got up out of the saddle quick when I saw it and got over the hill but my partner had to walk it. It was somewhere near enough to that hotel with the great views of Clew Bay. If its the same section Id say a lot of people would have to walk it but it wasnt that long, maybe 50m or so. The hill on this section in the OP is 820m long so a fairly different proposition.

Just learned that it costs 50 euro to make a submission to An Bord Pleanla so I doubt I'll bother now. Its a bit of a joke that they expect you to pay that kind of money to point out potential flaws in the design backed up by real world experience of actually cycling the section, something Ive no doubt the planning consultants didnt do themselves. Its no skin off my own nose if they route it on this steep gradient instead of the gentler alternative route as I can cycle to the top of it even though it is a tough slog and you are out of the saddle for a fair bit of it. And I know there is a T junction meeting a major road around a bend at the bottom of it. I was more pointing it out to them for others like children and inexperienced cyclists who have never been there before. A lot of them are going have to walk up it but the real problem is the potential speed they could pick up heading towards a T junction.

Murph_D

How are you calculating the elevation change? Not strava or Garmin, I assume, as it's not always very accurate?

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118570755#Comment_118570755

I used this site here, you can click anywhere in the country and it will tell you how many feet above sea level that point is

https://en-ie.topographic-map.com/maps/5h/Ireland/

Mercian Pro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567350#Comment_118567350

Do you have the Bord Pleanala reference number? I have tried searching their website but it doesn't show up and the Blessington Greenway site says work on the Greenway will start in Q3/20 and be completed in Q4/21 or Q1/22!

Just found it in the weekly lists - it's JP27.312479 in case anyone is interested. However, I can't find any way of viewing the drawings etc and the only reference on the Wicklow Co Co site seems to be to an earlier scheme in 2017 that was withdrawn.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118571678#Comment_118571678

Try here , and click view scanned files. Not 100% it's the correct application though

https://www.eplanning.ie/WicklowCC/AppFileRefDetails/17307/0

ED E

but is a mountainous area in parts.

Alarm bells were ringing for blessington once I read this. Not many of its ilk.

Manager Order:Part 8

Its a part 8 activity, the council doesnt need permission, it can just do it. They put it up for consultation but mostly can do what they want. So we don't always get detailed plans like you would where PP is sought.

ED E

Old thread here:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057657555/blessington-lakes-greenway

but AFAIK previous plans spoke about hardcore and some sort of loose gravel on top meaning you would likely need a hybrid bike to cycle it without discomfort.

Take a spin out here, not necessarily https://goo.gl/maps/qbLPi2SSzuDkG569A

 is the end of this 820m hill is a dog leg bend approx 25 metres before it ends in a T junction that meets a busy road.

Where are you seeing this? Are you perhaps mapping based on it being roadside?

Breezer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118570087#Comment_118570087

That bit at Mulranny is mad alright. I just about made it up. My friend, who would be the typical greenway cyclist (i.e. a non cyclist) had to get off his electric bike and push. Our other friend on a non-electric hybrid didn’t even attempt it, and he’s a reasonably regular “about town” cyclist.

4% over that distance isn’t ideal on a greenway. Could they zig zag it a bit or something on the existing land, I wonder?

loyatemu

all the documents for the Blessington Greenway are here (drawings on the link at the bottom of the page).

The original proposal had some sort of hardcore surface, but I think they're now going with asphalt as on virtually all Greenways, for accessibility reasons.

Mercian Pro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118571981#Comment_118571981

Afraid that that links to the 2017 proposal that was subsequently withdrawn. The more recent application was made directly to Bord Pleanala as the scope had increased and it adjoins a Special Area of Conservation. Maybe Muahahaha could inform us where the plans can be viewed as he seems to have seen them?

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118577966#Comment_118577966

You can see all the plans in PDFs at the bottom of this page, it is a new application from the 2017 version and only went live about 2 weeks ago. The public consultation is until March 3rd iirc

https://www.wicklow.ie/Living/Services/Community/Blessington-eGreenway

Page 8 of this document outlines the entire 33km route

https://www.wicklow.ie/Portals/0/adam/Documents/wd_gdeyVrEOQt4TG4G2yQg/Link/1.%20Blessington%20eGreenway%20-%20Planning%20Statement.pdf

From what I am hearing it is going to face a fair bit of resistance- not becasue of the greenway itself which has good support locally but becasue under this new plan the council want to erect traffic lights at three different bridges that cross the lake. The bridges are currently two way traffic lanes but they plan to reduce them down to 1 lane and then a shared cycle/pedestrian path taking up the rest of the space. Unsurprisingly this hasnt gone down well with people who drive across these bridges to get to work, schools, etc every day as they are going to be getting hit with a red light even if a cyclist or pedestrian is not using the bridge.

Richard Hillman

Depends on the gearing. If it's mountain bike type gears, he should be able to spin on up there, no problem.

I think I was going up Killiney hill when I was around 13/14, max gradiant on my route was between 10-15%. Average 7% over 1km.

Some times I had to stop and walk. But I was terribly unfit and had undiagnosed asthma.

ED E

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118578065#Comment_118578065

If the council deploy proper inductive loops they could easily limit drivers exposure to dwell times.

Mercian Pro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118578065#Comment_118578065

Excellent - many thanks for that. Apologies loyatemu, your link didn't work for me earlier but does now. Despite numerous searches on both the Bord Pleanala and Wicklow Co Co websites, I never came across that. Maybe it was because I didn't specify that it was an eGreenway (whatever that is!)

Mods, maybe some of the posts here dealing just with the Blessington Greenway could be moved to that thread and we can discuss the radical idea of traffic lights on narrow bridges to allow cyclists cross!

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118578472#Comment_118578472

If inductive loops means those sensors in the road that let the lights know someone is waiting then I think they are planned. But becasue it is a shuttle set up those waiting to enter the bridge will be on a red while those on coming the opposite direction clear the distance. There is a larger problem on one of the bridges (Kilkiernan) in that it has T junctions at both ends of it so there is going to have to be even more traffic light sequences for those turning left or right onto the bridge.

People locally dont want any lights or dwell times at all and there is resentment that they have supported the greenway but now the current plans are going to impact how they get about, to work, to schools, etc. Most of the time they cross these bridges there will be no cyclists/pedestrians on them yet they will be held up becasue of the reduction of the bridge down to one lane.

The problem isnt the idea of space being given up on the bridges for a cycleway, it is the removal of two way traffic that people are irked about. It seems the council are cheaping out when there are other solutions available such as cantilevered boardwalks as done on other bridges like in Newbridge and Tullow. Im not a fan of the traffic lights from an aesthetic point of view becasue the bridges are in rural areas of outstanding natural beauty where the views are of the lake, huge forests and mountains, people often stop to take photographs of the views. I think if they put up traffic lights in this type of environment it will take the gloss off what is a very scenic area. Im hopeful the council come back with a better solution with more suitable infrastructure than traffic lights but my guess is that this is about doing it on the cheapest possible budget and widening the bridges isnt an option they will consider.

Mercian Pro

Despite pages of highly technical analysis, it is extremely difficult to figure out how the proposed "shuttle" system on the bridges will actually work in practice. In the absence of anyone on the Greenway activating the lights at the toucan crossings, how long will someone have to wait for the full red/red; red/green; red/red sequence to complete before it switches to green/red and you can cross? I normally wouldn't be too concerned about drivers being held up but it would be a shame if local support turned to opposition over unclear information.

It does seem very odd that there is no mention of any alternatives being examined and costed such as the obvious cantilevered solution mentioned above. As well as budgetary reasons, there may be EIS issues as the lake is protected unlike the proposed route of the Greenway in the adjoining woodland. Hopefully Bord Pleanala will look at this issue although a further delay would be most unwelcome.

Muahahaha

Merican Ive read through those pages of technical documents and modelling of how the shuttle system works and also didnt see anything that states how long traffic will be held up at a red light. Theres lots of diagrams but the plan hasnt seemed to mention actual timings.

Nonetheless I think the red/green phase would be around about 60 seconds to get 6 or 7 cars across the length of the bridge. But that then increases to 120 seconds in the case of Kilkerinan bridge as there is a T junction at both ends so you have traffic turning left/right on to the bridge meaning each direction needs their own green phase. That could be negated somewhat with a right turning filter lane but AFAIK the space isnt there for that. Then if a pedestrian at either end of the bridge presses the button on the toucan crossing the red phase for traffic would get longer again.

I was talking to a couple of people over the weekend about it. One woman I know crosses Kilkerian bridge four times a day doing school runs and work and is opposed to traffic lights on the basis that potentially on a unlucky day her four trips could mean sitting at a red lights for 10 or 12 minutes in what is a rural area that never had traffic lights before. I can understand her concerns when people just want to get home to their houses and get the dinner on, etc. The people who use these bridges every day are effectively living on an island as their only other option is a 30km detour right around the lake so its not hard to see why there is annoyance about the current plan even though most support the greenway in general (and some are giving up land to facilitate it)

Another person said to me why dont they just place speed bumps/traffic calming infrastructure to reduce the traffic down to 20kph or under for the length of the bridge. i.e allow cyclists and cars to share what is currently there (pedestrians would use the existing pathway). He made the point that the greenway is 33km of dedicated cyclelane so is it really that big a deal for cyclists & cars to share 3 x 100m bridges. Personally I hate speed bumps but I would actually prefer that idea over installing lots of traffic lights in a scenic area. The council may well have considered the idea of traffic calming and speed bumps but are wary of some motorists being arseholes who will overtake cyclists despite the speed bumps.

ED E

Id say the timings are absent as thats an operational matter not a planning one. The councils set and change them at will. The chances are it'll be demand driven so if cars are stacking on one side it'll flip to that side. Approach sensors can mean it'll change BEFORE you get to the red. A magic "green wave". Doesnt need to be doom and gloom.

Speed bumps won't work, see cnuts in SUVs.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rorymeakin/status/1488674572786413569