Civilianisation of An Garda Siochana

gestappo

What are the external challenges facing the government in filling the Civilian positions?

They always have high hopes of filling these positions, but what external factor is stopping them?

KaneToad

One would think the resistance from people inside the organisation. There are many hundreds of guards doing jobs that do not require the power of arrest. They don't want to lose those roles.

gestappo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553260#Comment_118553260

Oh yes without a doubt, and I don't blame them either, but I'm wondering what the external issues would be and why the govt can't fill the roles?

The jobs aren't as desirable as your average civil service job.

Potentially anti social hours, dealing with tough subjects, the extra security checks, the prospect of losing civil servant status and the promotion or move options that go with that.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/union-opposes-moves-to-conscript-civilian-staff-into-garda-1.4579496

Coming under the remit of GSOC wouldn't particularly be desirable either.

gestappo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553287#Comment_118553287

I never knew they wanted to 'conscript' civilians - that explains a LOT.

Green Peter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553260#Comment_118553260

As if they have a say in the matter. Senior PSNI officers and Canadian officers are taking up senior policing roles on a regular basis. There are people in every job who want a 9am to 5pm job at some stage and in some cases like health situations it may be necessary. There are also roles that require policing experience. There has been a big acceleration of civilization in recent years and one of the issues arising is that there is alot of turnover in staff moving on to different departments in the civil service from AGS. Senior civil servants making stupid changes that have a huge impact on policing and then moving on to another department outside the organisation and leaving a mess behind them that needs to be cleaned up.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553287#Comment_118553287

Not to mention the possibility of getting kidnapped or shot!

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553313#Comment_118553313

Most ranks in the guards are occupied by ppl that went through templemore. A tiny, tiny minority came from outside - the current top man, one of his second in a commands being the obvious ones.

There are guards in the Irish police working as, mechanics, health & safety, office admin, IT, telecoms, court representing, crime scene work etc... all roles that could be done by someone else and freeing up the guard to do work that only guards can do i.e. work that needs the power of arrest/detention.

Can you name some of the roles that "require policing experience" that do not require the police man/woman to use their power of arrest/detention? I am curious to see what these might be.

Green Peter

I'll take them as you list them, mechanics, i take it you refer to the PSV inspectors, they are involved in the examination of vehicles in cases such as fatal accidents. They would be an expert witness and important to the dpp file. you can argue a civilian can do this but again continuity would be a problem with people chopping and changing jobs the Garda member is generally there to stay. It's amazing on the flip size how many retired traffic corps gardai are hired by private sector to investigate insurance cases. Why aren't civilians doing this. Health and safety is probably one that could be civilianised but civilians don't understand the issues of police on the ground as can be seen from many dealings with government department s like justice. Admin - there are some admin roles that deal with highly confidential material and require a sworn member to deal with it, that's just a fact. ITand telecoms I would outsource as it is already to a large degree, however there are again confidentiality issues that may require sworn members to deal with it. Court presenting could be outsourced to solicitors but there would be a huge cost and may not be any better results. Crime scene work has already been outsourced to some civilians and I believe this has not been as successful as hoped with many not coping too well with crime scenes and a turnover of staff as a result. The Garda member generally tends to have experienced scenes well in advance of applying and know what they are getting into. I have no issue with a mix in many roles but for continuity Garda members tend to stay with the role and not move on so quickly. They are generally show more loyalty to the role.