Incremental skips in Public Service

Steed

Hi,

Would anyone know if you started as a CO in January 2019 would you be entitled to the incremental skip of point 4 to point 5?

I’ve read the circulars but it’s hard to work out. For me anyway.

Circular 4/2020 1.3 is where I’m thrown

Thanks,

Peter

marty whelan

Yep you move to point 5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530267#Comment_118530267

There's no real hard and fast rule, as far as I know. The short answer is "it depends".

I've posted about this before, but I was secretary of the IMPACT (now Fórsa) branch around the time that the recruitment moratorium finished at my old job and was involved in loads of cases around what you're describing, albeit for slightly different reasons. We were a public sector organisation, but not full civil servants. This meant we were not part of the common recruitment pool, ineligible for interdepartmental positions and subject to the rules and regulations of the open comps.

The roles and grades were identical to the civil service 'proper' but instead of CO, EO, HEO, AP etc., the grades were named slightly differently, but with identical Ts &Cs. So we had AA, EO, SEO, SAO etc. For certain HR units, usually the smaller ones, this meant that they shoved people back to point 1 on their new scale, even if it meant they lost money. Two quick examples:

An AA working there 15 years (on about €40k) got promoted to EO via open comp. New HR guys said "that's not the same as CO, so you're back to point 1 on the EO scale" (approx €30k). He appealed, they said no. He asked us to make representations on his behalf and they wouldn't budge. Kept saying they were perfectly within their right, even after they were shown evidence of this occurring elsewhere, including @ DPER's own offices. In the end, we convinced them to put him at point 3 or 4 on the EO scale, and he'd get no increments for either 3 or 4 years, until he'd 'caught up'.

A different AA was in the same boat, successful at open EO comp and had been told he was starting at point 1.....about a 20% pay cut for him. There was a couple of week's worth of back and forth trying to sort it out, but they wouldn't budge. He was thinking of refusing the offer, but wasn't sure how that would affect him going forward. He had also applied for an open CO competition that was running at the same time, but hadn't concluded yet. He was successful in the CO comp and got placed in the SAME DEPARTMENT as his EO offer. He took the CO post, moved over to the new department as a CO at his current point on the scale, then accepted the EO offer, meaning he began at point 6 or 7 on the EO scale.

Absolutely barmy stuff, caused completely by the actions of one pig-headed idiot in HR in the new place. Both times they were small, independent, autonomous bodies as opposed to proper Depts. Literally a mini-Hitler running the show and refusing to entertain any notion they were in the wrong.

They updated the legislation just before Covid hit to cover these types of situations (.pdf linked here) but left in the bit about local HR having the final call on what is equivalent to an established grade, and what isn't. And that's a load of BS.

It is for the recruiting Department/Office to satisfy itself that analogous conditions exist. HR units should direct any queries on this matter to this Department (see below).  

marty whelan

As in, you go from 3 straight to 5

James2020App

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529634#Comment_118529634

Correct yeah.

the explorer

Can you skip increments more than once? For example if you did it as a CO and then got open EO and started on point one of scale

Steed

Thank you @marty whelan and @James2020App very much appreciated

cheers,

Peter

fergald

Are you sure,. I started in Sept 2008 and was told when I get increment 4 it will skip to 5 not 3 to 5. So expecting it this Sept.

Steed

It says those ON point 3. However it’s the rules surrounding it that are unclear

Steed

@fergald its the same thing, is it not? Being on 3 means you are going to 4 but you skip 4 and go to 5

BhoyRayzor

If going from say point 1 on EO to AO, do you go to point 2 on AO and still skip points 4 and 8 on the AO scale?

Ollie321

My understanding is that you would move to Point 1 on AO scale as point 1 of EO is below this but yes would skip point 4 and 8 of AO. I may be wrong

BhoyRayzor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118532596#Comment_118532596

I've seen it posted before that you go to the nearest point above and then plus one but I'm no sure either. Below is what I am taking from circular 08/2019 but I'm not sure my understanding is correct as I had to read it a few times as it sounds like a riddle. 😃

1.2 (iv) 'Where the minimum of the new salary scale is greater than existing pay by an amount less than the first increment on the new scale, the officer may enter the new scale at the minimum plus one increment.'

A - AO 1 of €33,553 - EO 1 of €31,384 = €2,169

B - AO 1 of €33,553 - AO 2 of €36,046 = €2,493 (first increment on the new scale)

As A is less than B 'may enter the new scale at the minimum plus one increment', so AO point 2.

marty whelan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531546#Comment_118531546

Presume you mean Sept 2018, so Sept 2019 = point 2, Sept 20 = point 3, Sept 21 = point 5 because you skip point 4. So you should be on point 5 since Sept 21.

fergald

Thanks Marty Whelan I will check with HR again as I argued this point before. However the guy had not a clue what I was talking about.

elWizard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118532827#Comment_118532827

I've been looking at that circular too, the language is unbelievably convoluted, no idea who approved it, but my understanding/calculation is the same as yours - EOs on the first increment should start on the second AO increment. And if that doesn't happen I'd be at least on to Payroll asking them to explain why not, in clear english.

As to your other question, AFAIK is it is irrelevant whether you start on increment 1 or 2, when the times comes you skip over 3 and go straight to 4 (and over 7 to 8).

MarkR

I, and quite a few others where I work skipped an increment. Turns out that was an oopsie, and now we are all being told to pay it back. Seems that something was misinterpreted, and we weren't eligible. Pain in the posterior.

fergald

Ah it does not apply to HEO - 65025 HIGHER EXECUTIVE OFFICER STANDARD SCALE – PPC.

Embir78

Are any of the “higher scale” scales able to skip an increment? If not, it almost makes the higher scales useless as they even out very quickly…

fergald

It looks like it does not apply to HEO level and above for new entrants who joined after 2014.

trigger26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538800#Comment_118538800

No it doesn't apply for HEOs, I got this confirmed from my previous departments HR

runawaybishop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538967#Comment_118538967

Yup, it only applies to grades that were reduced under circular 18/2010, circular 07/2019 lays it out - skips for only those grades for new entrants who joined after 2011

Grades affected were ao, eo, co, so, services attendant and cleaner.

Philipberry

If you have skipped point 4 and 8 on CO pay scale and you are promoted to EO or AO you cannot skip again.

mdwexford

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543251#Comment_118543251

Is this a confirmed fact?

What if you were on point 5 or 6 of the CO scale and got promoted to EO, would you skip any EO increments then?

Philipberry

If you are point 5 or 6 on CO scale and get promoted to eo or ao you can skip point 8 on this scale because you haven't it skipped before.

If you are on point 10 of CO scale and have skipped 4 and 8, get promoted to EO you will not skip again.

CA1990

Hi All, I have started into year 3 as CO this year when my 3 years of service will be up later in the year will I just go up by one point on the pay scale or I am allocated to point 5. I am hoping to get a EO interview this year on external panel missed out by a few days to apply for internal comp. I love my job but finding the pay side of it getting tougher even with the increase in wage it's all swallowed up with pension and tax. I feel frustrated I was in a completely different profession before I joined the CS and I am still after 3 years not on the money I was on before I joined. It's the people and work life balance keeping me in the job atm.

Shuffl_in

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543357#Comment_118543357

If you are on point 5 or 6 on the CO scale you would start on point 2 of the EO scale and skip point 4 when you get to it. That would be your last skip.

Kirbi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120137762#Comment_120137762

If you're on point 3 of the CO scale at the moment, you'll move to point 5 at your next CO increment.

As mentioned in the above comment, it'll be different if you start as an EO before that happens.

Guffy

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