Issue in Court today re' illegal parking

wannabecraig · 05-01-2022 10:40pm #1

I was in court today where I was summonsed for parking on a double yellow and non-display of tax and insurance.

I don't remember getting a ticket, didnt get anything through the mail until I received the summons. I was taxed and insured and I always have them displayed so no idea what it was about. I went to court, was called, showed my tax and insurance proof, and so they were dismissed. Judge asked me how I pleaded to the double yellow and I said I didn't get notices on the day or via mail afterward. He told me to hurry up and asked what way I wanted to plead. I said I didn't think I should plead guilty as I didn't know what it was about. He said "fine, not guilty, back in court in March and perhaps you'll learn to read the situation then!".

I honestly don't know what this means, what I should have done (paid the fine?) or what they can do now. I'd as soon as be done with it at this point so can I just pay the fine now?

I felt bamboozled by it all.

boombang · 05-01-2022 10:51pm

Was the stated location ever one near where you would park? I was just wondering if a mistake was made taking down somebody else's reg and you got hit with the summons?

Sorry for your troubles BTW. Doesn't sound like you were dealt with politely at all.

mickdw · 05-01-2022 10:55pm

Your mistake it seems was attempting to represent yourself.

Have a solicitor with you next time.

wannabecraig · 05-01-2022 10:58pm

It was the south circular road, near Kilmainham on the 7-10-202, so over 15 months ago! So I honestly have no idea. I live in the city, so yes, easily, but normally you get clamped right? Or a letter in the post, I got nothing. I'm just wondering how bad it can get for just a double yellow offence that I have to go to court for again.

05-01-2022 10:59pm

My dad has a similar thing going on right now. Garda accused him of parking in a disabled spot, which he 100% didn't, and had someone else in the car with him. Got the letter in the post and the Garda didn't even put down the correct street he started an unnecessary row with a pensioner on.

If the Garda shows up then the judge will almost certainly take their side. Truth and fairness don't matter.

wannabecraig · 05-01-2022 11:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424335#Comment_118424335

I don't have the money for one, I thought I just needed to show up with my other certs, several people didn't have solicitors and they just showed their documentation, I just didn't want to say I committed the offence if I dont think I did and hadn't had any notification to say I had.

wannabecraig · 05-01-2022 11:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424364#Comment_118424364

So do you just get the original fine or more added on?

05-01-2022 11:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424364#Comment_118424364

If the Garda shows up then the judge will almost certainly ~~take their side~~ believe their lies..

Fyp - if the Gards told the truth in court, then there would rarely be any 'side' to take; either subjectively or objectively. In the main that is - this case is different as OP is unsure of the facts..

05-01-2022 11:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424370#Comment_118424370

Just saw when it happened, there's no option for you to pay the fine now.

Bring evidence that you can, fair chance the person who issued the fine won't show up. Hope for the best.

05-01-2022 11:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424370#Comment_118424370

AFAIK it goes up 50% after 28 days then 28 days later there's no option to pay it.

It's up to luck/the judge what the outcome will be. If you do get a fine there'll likely be payment options.

05-01-2022 11:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424399#Comment_118424399

Yeah I was just trying to be broad.

05-01-2022 11:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424422#Comment_118424422

You're entitled to be diplomatic 😊 Was just expanding on your point a bit!

wannabecraig · 05-01-2022 11:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424416#Comment_118424416

I'm happy to just pay now to be honest, I can't deal with the hassle atm and I can't get a solicitor for an 80€ fine. I just got railroaded and didnt want to say I was guilty!

Edit: I see you said 'no' option to pay! Nightmare. So I have to go to court again.

coylemj · 10-01-2022 3:31pm

I don't believe that you have the right to get a parking ticket as a first step in the case of a parking offence i.e. you can be summonsed straight to court without being given the option of a paying a fine.

I find it very strange that the OP's parking summons was adjourned to March, parking cases are almost never adjourned. If the Garda or traffic warden doesn't show up, they are typically dismissed.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-01-2022 12:44pm

Odd that the OP was summonsed for non-display of tax and insurance when they say they were in fact displaying.

Would a Garda normally note the make, colour etc. of a vehicle they were ticketing? Seems to me the most likely explanation is that they made a mistake taking down the reg.

If it was just the parking ticket, then absent CCTV etc. it's pretty much impossible to prove that you didn't do it. But the dubious non-display charges call the whole thing into question for me and tbh I'm surprised the judge didn't throw out the parking ticket as well on that basis.

coylemj · 11-01-2022 1:39pm

Judge asked me how I pleaded to the double yellow and I said I didn't get notices on the day or via mail afterward. He told me to hurry up and asked what way I wanted to plead.

As you never got a notice in the post about a ticket, I'm going to assume that this prosecution was initiated by a Garda and not a traffic warden.

Was there a Garda in court to give evidence? The way you've described the court procedure doesn't sound right. If evidence was presented by a Garda then you would have been either convicted or found not guilty on the day. If your Garda wasn't available because of Covid (close contact etc.), all of his/her summons would have been adjourned en bloc and you would not have been in front of the judge to answer in the way you've described.

manonboard · 11-01-2022 1:53pm

OP, Sounds a bit odd how it happened.

When a similar thing happened to me. The garda had to be there, he could not be there, so his cases were given to another member of the force.

I was summoned for no insurance, which i have always had, and presented my papers. It was dismissed.

If your gardai was not there, its highly strange that it was not dismissed or passed to another.

Regardless, you have no choice now. The time to pay a fine has passed. Its possible you could contact the garda but it would absolutely be worthless unless you think they will confess to a mistaken charge.

You need to go to court. Do yourself a big favour. Find yourself a local solicitor that attends that court. Let them deal with the judge on your behalf. Judges dont like dealing with lay people because we have no idea of protocol or procedure, or impact as you have just learned first hand. A solicitor can highlight quickly that you were charged with other issues that were all dismissed and you believe this is a case of mistaken identity. If there is no guard to show up, it will likely be dismissed

Witcher · 11-01-2022 1:57pm

Gardai don't attend on the first day for summons matters in the CCJ anymore, court presenters represent them and they only attend on the hearing date.

coylemj · 11-01-2022 3:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455397#Comment_118455397

So if you get a parking summons issued by a Garda, you have to attend court twice?

GM228 · 12-01-2022 7:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118450221#Comment_118450221

You absolutely do have a right to a FCPN first, you can't be summoned straight to court for any fixed penalty offence, to initiate any such proceedings where no FCPN has been issued is an unlawful process, and even in cases when you are eventually summonsed you then also get one final chance to pay a higher FCPN to avoid the proceedings.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455397#Comment_118455397

It seems you are loosely describing is the upcoming pre trial procedure where counsel will be able to represent the prosecuting Garda, and it will only apply to certain indictable offences, based on the CC pre trial non statutory procedure in place since 2012.

To proceed with the hearing for a summary offence the prosecutor needs to be present, the first day is the hearing, if the prosecuting Guard is not present when you are called the case will usually be struck out, it would be rare for a dismissal or adjournment in such a case without good reason, but if there was there would be no plea made.

Back to the OP, as Coylemj rightly notes the way they "described the court procedure doesn't sound righ", it simply does not add up based on the information we have.

Rmgblue · 12-01-2022 7:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118459344#Comment_118459344

Witcher is right. All looked after by court presenters now. OP it does sound like a mistake. I’m not certain but pretty sure you should have got a fine in the post? Did you? You can always ‘plead guilty’ next day but the first court date would have been better time to do that. I only say that as you mentioned preferring to pay the fine now. That’s not an option. Go get a solicitor. There’s the same bunch of solicitors in the court in the date. Grab one and explain it to them

GM228 · 12-01-2022 8:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118459361#Comment_118459361

Witcher said "Gardai don't attend on the first day for summons matters in the CCJ anymore", the presenter is a member of the Gardaí (usually an inspector) and acts as the prosecuting Garda with the case being heard on the day.

At least that has been the case until recent enough, unless there are special procedures introduced in recent times applicable to the DMDC as I have not sat that court in some time.

Rmgblue · 12-01-2022 8:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118459433#Comment_118459433

Yea that’s that Witcher said. Which I’m in agreement with. It’s not what you said originally. But as you say you haven’t been there in some time. I’m just trying to make it clear for the OP not looking to start a row

GM228 · 12-01-2022 9:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118459447#Comment_118459447

Both my statements mean the same, but the confusion for me is coming from Witcher saying Gardaí don't attend the first day, is the presenter no longer a Garda, is it a civilian because that's the impression I got and the basis of my reply.

wannabecraig · 12-01-2022 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454983#Comment_118454983

Clarity;

I didn't receive a fixed charge notice, first thing I received was a summons, this was issue in Dec of 2021, the offence was supposed to have taken place in October 2020. In Court the Garda who's name was on the summons was represented by another guard, who seems to be representing all guards that day. I showed my proof of tax and insurance to that guard and they struck those out, but the judge asked about the yellow lines offence. I said I didn't want to plead guilty if I didn't do it (I cannot prove any of this as noted above). Judge basically said I was wasting his time (I feel if I'd pleaded guilty he would have struck all charges out). He told me I'd soon learn to read the situation and set another date for March (I have not received notice of this).

I don't want to pay for a solicitor if I can just plead guilty on the day and pay the fine, my concern is if they can increase the fine or make the fine worse in another way e.g. points on my license.

ohnonotgmail · 12-01-2022 3:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118461544#Comment_118461544

what was the offence on the summons?

wannabecraig · 12-01-2022 3:52pm

Non-display of tax & insurance and parking on a double yellow line. 3 different documents.

They didn't give the exact spot I was parked in, just in Dublin 8, near SCR.

silver2020 · 12-01-2022 4:01pm

so did you get the summons on the morning of the 5th Jan with court appearance a few hours later?

I assume not.

So you had plenty of time to think and have a reply ready.

Judges absolutely hate prevaricating. Come in front of a judge acting as if you are dumb and you get the response you got.

You'll get worse in March if you try this again.

You answer the question as honestly as you can. If warden put down tax and insurance, then possibly it was incorrect car.

If you do park at the location now and then and have a habit of not always paying for parking, then its likely you did get the ticket.

Ticket goes to registered address of the car. I don't believe in "lost" post. Neither do most judges. You either got it and trying to convince yourself you didn't or you got it and threw it out as you thought it was junk mail, or you car is registered to a different address. (unlikely if you got the summons)

So in March, when asked, answer yes or no. No dilly dally. Have the reasons for no and hope they don't have a photo

12-01-2022 4:13pm

Deleted for privacy reasons.

moceri · 12-01-2022 4:24pm

The Gardai are so incompetent. Once I was stopped for a traffic offence. I was asked to produce proof of Tax and insurance to my local Garda station, which I did. Nevertheless, I was summonsed to Court for failing to have valid Insurance and Tax. I produced my documentation to the judge who promptly threw out the case. A member of AGS stood up to apologise to the judge for the administrative error.

wannabecraig · 12-01-2022 4:28pm

I dont park near SCR, I'm over the other side of the city. I just don't really want to go through the hassle again in the courtroom and as it was so long ago I can't really say I wasn't there. I just want to plead guilty, pay the fine and move on. Again, my concern is if it'll just be the 80€.

Agreed that I must have been an annoyance to the court and riled the judge up coming to lunch, no messing about next time.

costacorta · 12-01-2022 4:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118459344#Comment_118459344

Garda don’t put anything on your windscreen for illegal parking and not required too as neither is a traffic warden but they usually do .

I got one 2 yrs ago and first I knew of it is when I received a letter telling me I had a €40 fine for DYL and it would be going to €60 after 28 days.

It was given by a traffic warden in a local town and when I called to council office to enquire about ticket and told them I didn’t receive anything on windscreen girl said if weather is very wet wardens usually just note number etc and take photo. She had pictures of my van on DYL so I just paid up ..

GM228 · 12-01-2022 4:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462782#Comment_118462782

"Garda don’t put anything on your windscreen for illegal parking and not required too as neither is a traffic warden but they usually do"

I never said they do.

costacorta · 12-01-2022 4:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462821#Comment_118462821

You mentioned FCPN ? That’s what they put on your windscreen. Fixed Charge Penalty Notice . Anything in post is a reminder to let you know you have received one .

coylemj · 12-01-2022 5:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462821#Comment_118462821

You said you're entitled to an FCPN first......

You absolutely do have a right to a FCPN first, you can't be summoned straight to court for any fixed penalty offence,

Which suggests that if a Garda sees an offence but doesn't have a book of tickets, there's nothing they can do about it. I know there's a schedule of eligible offences, I'm not aware that the option to give a ticket precluded a prosecution without any ticket. Can you quote the authority for your statement above?

GM228 · 12-01-2022 5:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462847#Comment_118462847

Incorrect, a FCPN is either put on a window or posted to you, what you receive in the post is not a reminder you got a FCPN on your window, it is the FCPN itself.

silver2020 · 12-01-2022 5:49pm

If you don't park at the location and they also stated incorrectly that you did not have tax insurance, then it is more likely that it is an error.

I'd say not guilty and simply state that you don't park on that road and that you assume it was an error as it was also claimed that you had no tax and insurance displayed and you have always had your tax and insurance.

If like many and you leave previous year's tax and insurance discs behind current ones, take them out and show them to the judge.

Once he sees that they were issued before the date, he'll almost certainly throw the case out

GM228 · 12-01-2022 5:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463009#Comment_118463009

Yes, but I didn't say it must be put on your window, a FCPN must be issued and served first, it does not have to be done then and there however, they are usually posted to your address.

Any offence which is a declared FCP offence can not bypass the FCPN stage and go straight to court, such a prosecution is statutorily barred, S35 (2) of the Road Traffic Act 2010. A FCPN must be issued, served and failed to be paid as a precondition to proceedings.

12-01-2022 6:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463009#Comment_118463009

They don't carry books of tickets anymore, it's all done by computers. They just need to put all information into the computer and it sends out the ticket

costacorta · 12-01-2022 6:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463317#Comment_118463317

But sure everyone can say then that they didn’t receive anything in post . This used to happen a lot with go safe speeding fines but I think they found some way around it . Maybe they need to send it by registered post ? .

Anyway regarding OP if it were me I’d try and contact the guard in question or go to local Garda station and try and explain my case . Something doesn’t add up here .Did they receive court summons by registered post or was it hand delivered? .

wannabecraig · 12-01-2022 7:10pm

Court summons was by regular post, I didn't have to sign for it, was just in the letter box as normal.

I'm happy to try ring the guard if that can be sorted, I didn't know that was an option, I'm just so confused by it all.

I don't have last year's disks, but I did show them that I was both taxed and insured at the time and the judge dismissed those. I think it was just me trying to engage in discussion with him over how this could have happened that wound him up, he seemed in a good mood until I came along!

GM228 · 12-01-2022 11:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463501#Comment_118463501

"But sure everyone can say then that they didn’t receive anything in post . This used to happen a lot with go safe speeding fines but I think they found some way around it . Maybe they need to send it by registered post ?"

Indeed everyone cay say it, but not everyone can prove it (on the balance of probability) to rebut the statutory presumption of service of the FCPN.

The Oireachtas did indeed find (for a short while anyway) a way around the issue, however, the solution was subsequently found unconstitutionaol in a 2019 High Court Judicial Review, to make things worse the JR also unwound all the previous case law on what was deemed to be considered service of a FCPN when the defence of non receipt of the FCPN was raised.

wannabecraig · 23-11-2022 2:43pm

So this issue, I thought, had gone away, but I got a letter in the post, registered, saying I had to attend court for previously summonses regarding fixed charge penalty fines. It’s very short letter and doesn’t give me much detail.

CanI just pay the parking fine in advance or do I have to appear in court again.

If I have to go again, what's the worst thing that can happen?

Cliffs;went to court last Jan, for parking fine and no display of tax and insurance.

Proved I have tax and insurance and was on the hook for parking. Pleaded not guilty, now have to go back. Am happy to just pay fine if I dont have to go back!