ECM brewing too quickly - is it the beans?

BoardsMember

When I get the coffee shop to grind the decent/fresh (3FE) beans I pull a double in about 25-30 seconds (roughly a 2:1 ratio). Which is what I'd be looking for. And it tastes great, so I know the machine is working as expected.

When I grind "test" beans myself (Velo, not particularly fresh) on finest setting on my new Rocky it pours through much more quickly. About 2 or 3 times the flow rate of the shop ground 3FE beans.

To the touch, it feels like the beans I'm grinding are very fine. If I go any finer (to the zero mark on Rocky) it makes a sound like the burrs are touching. So it doesn't seem like it is a calibration issue.

Could it be the beans themselves? I can always go buy 2 bags of beans from 3FE, get them to grind one, and see for myself. Just wondering if anyone has any insights as to anything else I might be missing?

Planet X

Old beans loosing their moisture/oils.

You'll notice, at least I do, beans after a week or so......the grinder will have to be adjusted slightly to grind finer. And when I grind too fine.......worse, the flow will almost stop. Bin.

It's a learning curve, I just judge by the size of the "rocks" 😀 falling out of the grinder into the portafilter.

BoardsMember

Thanks @Planet X - is that a cycling refernece??!! I was after one of those bikes for a while!

It's weird though, I seem to have it on the finest possible setting but the resulting ground coffee is still flowing through too quickly. I thought that setting should be too fine and just a dribble coming through.

I will do the experiment of same beans, me grind/coffee shops grind and compare.

Planet X

Had a Rocky a few years ago. It was fine for my Gaggia Classic but wouldn't grind fine enough for an espresso. It's stepped so, you cannot fine tune the grinding (though it can be "modded" I believe)

Yes, cycling reference. Had a PX TT bike with Zipp 606 wheel set years ago. 😉

BoardsMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327417#Comment_118327417

Can't believe it won't grind fine enough for the Espresso machine, it was sold as a pair.

alec76

ECM is a brand name btw, I’ve thought you bought Rancilio Silvia , used ?

Tell us more about this machine, year , version, PID ?

What’s the brewing pressure on this machine? Some of them could be set as high as 12 bars ,no wonder if it is flushing fast .

What about grinder ( personally I don’t think Rocky is a great grinder: too much retention and clumping, stepped too ) if it was bought used ,burrs might be worn out to the last too.

ps. You could get decent espresso blend in Lidl those days .

I would recommend you “Galway Roast”

https://galwayroast.ie/product/galway-roast-coffee-bean/

it is only €5 in LIDL , quality can be varied from one batch to another( from very good to barely drinkable,still better than Velo imo), medium to darkish roast ( I dunno if they playing with the profile or just can’t produce equal roast level for every batch ) creamy, decent for milky coffee. These beans are easy to grind too, I would say you’ll be able to choke machine at the finest grinder setting.

deandean

Have you got a decent tamper?

Put more coffee in, and tamp it harder until you get your required flow time.

Best of luck!

BoardsMember

Thanks so much for the replies, l really appreciate the help and advice.

@alec76 I'm such a spanner, I thought ECM was shorthand for espresso coffee machines. Yes, I have the Silvia pro. I bought it new. It comes with 9bar pressure. When the lads in 3FE ground for me the 2nd time, they didn't grind fine enough and it flushed through quickly. They had said to come back if it wasn't right. So I did, they ground a new bag around the same setting they use in-house and it was lovely. So the Silvia is working as expeted.

The Rocky grinder is new too. Rocky makes a sound like burrs are slightly touching when I set to zero so seems like it is correctly calibrated. But when I have it at the setting just above zero, i.e. finest setting, the brew is still too quick on beans I have at home. I've tried different beans this morning and while better than the Velo it's still 1/3 a mug in 25 seconds with about 15g coffee. It's drinkable and there is a crema but it's not right. So to me this says it is either the beans or the grinder.

My next step is to get 3FE to grind some beans and I grind the same beans myself and compare/contrast the two. I reckon it will show me that the Rocky is not grinding fine enough, which will be disappointing as that leaves me no options really in relation to grinding at home with this machine/grinder combo. Which I am struggling to understand. Hopefully I am wrong and having good/fresh beans ground at home will give me similar results to 3FE ground beans.

@deandean as part of my planned latest experiment with 3FE beans ground in 3FE and at home I will try your suggestion of more coffee/tamping harder.

Thanks again for the advice.

alec76

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118342177#Comment_118342177

Congratulations, Silvia Pro absolutely great machine, you won’t regret it.

Couldnt say the same about grinder though.It is still capable to grind fine enough.

Always use same pressure for the tamper . 15g too little by modern standards.

17-18g way to go for the double basket with yield up to 40g in 25-30 seconds.

Always use scales for yield , don’t judge by volume.

ps. Naked portafilter and precision portafilter basket would help to get better results too.

https://www.bluestarcoffee.eu/rancilio-bottomless-portafilter-v3-12328-p.asp

https://www.bluestarcoffee.eu/ims-convex--double-filter-basket-ch-10359-p.asp?v=0&variantid=14342

https://www.bluestarcoffee.eu/ims-ridged-filter-basket-5237-p.asp

there are different sizes of baskets I would get 18g .

Sivia Pro supposed to be set at 9 bars, but there is no pressure gauge in it , so unexperienced person wouldn’t know the difference if pressure not set correctly.

Here the easy tool to check pressure, it simply screws into portafilter ( just unscrew existing spout first) and remove filter basket during the test.

https://www.bluestarcoffee.eu/portafilter-pressure-gauge-15985-p.asp

There is actually another method to check brewing pressure, it is involved measuring of amount of water from return valve in 30 sec. You might search YouTube about this .

Rocky makes a sound like burrs are slightly touching when I set to zero so seems like it is correctly calibrated.

If you have no experience with the grinders then it still might be not calibrated right .

https://youtu.be/I3A6O9cMtmI

neilthefunkeone

Have a silvia and rocky and can get beans ground fine enough for espresso. Usually around 5-10 mark on the rocky depending on beans..

Maybe check it is calibrated ok and clean it out.. burrs might be clogged.

BoardsMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118342665#Comment_118342665

Can I not assume it is calibrated right with the fact there's a different noise at setting zero that sounds like it is the burrs touching?

alec76

If you decide to buy some tools from blue star coffee then I suggest you to get powder for the back flushing

https://www.bluestarcoffee.eu/urnex-cafiza-cleaning-powder-900g-11275-p.asp

And a plumber tape of course , you might don’t need it , but just handy to have for DIY jobs around the house , maybe you have to use it when attaching pressure gauge to portafilter

https://www.bluestarcoffee.eu/teflon-sealing-tape-3561-p.asp

neilthefunkeone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118342754#Comment_118342754

Yeah sorry missed that bit. Yeah so it's calibrated then.. so a few other suggestions above, fresh beans, tamping correctly and you should be flying!!

BoardsMember

Thanks a mill! I'll put an order in for the naked portafilter and the 18g basket. I was already trying to source a Rancilio version to make sure compatible.

alec76

Most of the naked 58 mm portafilters will fit , it just about the Fins thikness , 5.6mm right size for new generation Silvia , old one about 6 mm. They both would work , only different fin size align to the group head at 5 o'clock or 7 o’clock while original one align at 6 o’clock.

If you have calliper at home just check the original portafilter’s fins at the thickest part and see.

alec76

Where did you get grinder from?

Any chance to return?

If not ( combo deal etc), probably need to be recalibrated, at the finest setting you should be able to choke machine altogether ( with no flow whatsoever). Unless beans completely sh**t.

I’ve bought my Baratza Vario grinder long time ago , it was twice price of Rocky grinder and yet came completely not calibrated at factory for espresso, couldn’t pull a decent shot ( 18g coffee ,15 seconds for 60g yield best result). Only took few minutes to calibrate it and I am happy with it for the last 6 years or so

Bad Tamping only leads to channeling, hardly anything else.

If I was choosing grinder with the similar price range to Rocky , I would go for Eureka Mignon

Silenzio

https://www.bluestarcoffee.eu/eureka--mignon-silence-1714-p.asp

It is much quieter than Rocky , very little clumps , stepless.

ps. If you change standard basket to competition basket from IMS or VST you’ll get even faster flow than you have now with the same grinder setting as those baskets have very little resistance compared to standard one. Rocky still would choke the flow completely at the finest setting if calibrated properly.

BoardsMember

I'm confused. It makes a different sound when at setting zero. Sounds like it is burrs touching. Surely that means it is calibrated properly.

alec76

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344585#Comment_118344585

Not necessary.

Have you watched the guide above from YouTube how to recalibrate Rocky?

If you can’t stop the flow with the finest setting then it is not calibrated right, end of story. Unless beans you using completely garbage.

time stamp from 3:00 to 3:13 on YouTube video above

https://youtu.be/I3A6O9cMtmI|?t=180

BoardsMember

Ok, thanks for being patient with me! I'll try that tomorrow. Good to know it should definitely be able to grind fine enough to stop the flow. I had read somewhere that Ricky was unable to grind fine enough for Espresso.

alec76

sure thing , Rocky designed for Espresso.

It is noisy, it is not possible to adjust it very precise ( if your flow is 30 seconds, you won’t be able to set it to 29, it is stepped grinder , no fine tuning here)

It is very clumpy ( finer you go , more clumps by Rocky) , clumps create channeling and issues with extraction.

Too much retention with grinder ( old grinds stuck in the gears )

But no matter what , it will STOP flow at the finest setting.

Get those beans from LIDL and try them , as I am not sure about Velo.

alec76

If you won’t be able to improve grinds ( watch the video few times , remove the burrs, put it back in the place, good experience for cleaning purposes) then there is something wrong with it , I would contact the retailer to replace it or full refund.( hopefully you haven’t ordered it from CoffeeItalia )

BoardsMember

Not from coffeitalia no, saw warning about that crowd here. This is my 2nd one, first didn't work at all, the hopper didn't lock in position at all and moved ant clockwise while grinding, so I'm not massively confident about Rocky already.

BoardsMember

Ok. So I recalibrated it. Nothing new. Still can't get anything like a 1:2 ratio in 25 seconds. The basket will only hold about 16g. I think I might buy a pressure gauge in the new year. Kind of at wits end and ready to fck it all in the bin! I won't though. But when I see a remark suggesting I should be able to clog it on zero setting then I wonder what is happening. I'm pulling about 48g or more with a firm tamp in 25 seconds, so it is miles off. If I try adding more coffee it just spills over the top of the basket. I might get another bag of 3FE to see am I losing it completely. If that ends up delivering the 1:2 ratio then I will send it back again and just ask for credit or a different type of grinder.

alec76

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118353524#Comment_118353524

Is it Velo beans you trying? You haven’t tried those LIDL beans “ Galway Roast” ?

As for the recalibration, good thing you’ve tried, it is all good experience , easy road not always the best one :)

There is always the chance grinder just not assembled properly at the factory , some play in the gears etc. if this the case , just send it back and ask refund. You’ve got top of the line coffee machine, no point to use bad grinder.

colly10

If you grind 15g and tamp lightly, can you add more to get 18g or will 18 literally not fit in the basket? If the above works, get a dosing funnel.

Rule out the beans, nothing wrong with velo but i’ve never bought them in a supermarket (which could be any age). Try grind the 3FE ones that worked when they grinded.

If you can get 18g in and you can’t choke the machine with them it’s your grinder

neilthefunkeone

I'm fairly new to the silvia and rocky and when I first got it I bought a cheap bag of beans in lidl as didn't want to ruin a good bag learning. It didn't help and I just struggled to get it working to the point I was like you and kicking myself for wasting money.

A proper fresh bag of beans was like night and day. Doesn't have to be 3fe, plenty of options around but maybe order online for fresher so not sitting on a shop or supermarket shelf for a few weeks.

On pressure I remember seeing a review on the silvia by James Hoffmann and of the similar machines he found the it was the only one in that range out of the box with proper pressure set so hopefully that's the case with yours.

Im pretty sure the double basket with the silvia is a 16g basket, there's a code on side of basket google it and it will tell you. Id usually use 16g - 16.5g in the basket.

Hopefully it's not a second faulty grinder for you.. plenty of things annoy me about the rocky.. retention, beans getting stuck in the hopper screwholes, the switch placement!!! But luckily enough it does grind for me!!

neilthefunkeone

BoardsMember

I can get a little more than 16g in the basket but then it is hard to square the portafilter. As in, it doesn't close enough and then the water spills over the top. Maybe that is choking it? But i think it is more over filling it.

When I put 16g in the basket there is a gap between the top of the coffee and the top of thr basket, presumably as expected.

Currently using Slumber Jack beans bought in Lidl, not Galway Bay ones.

BoardsMember

I'll get another bag of 3FE tomorrow, get them to grind half, and I'll grind the rest myself. And compare ratio after 25 seconds.

alec76

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354063#Comment_118354063

Galway Roast the only half decent beans in Lidl I found for espresso making and they are high density beans , heavy and easy to choke machine. That was the reason I was suggesting to get them.

Currently I am drinking some coffee from WCC single origin subscription and even WCC beans were only 7 days old they still were very light in density compare to 3 months old Galway Roast .

BoardsMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354207#Comment_118354207

Thanks, sorry, I got to Lidl and forgot what beans you had recommended. I'll pick up a pack of those in the morning.