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Does this smell right: MB Ad Blue tank

  • 14-12-2021 4:54pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭ higster


    Mercedes 181 e200, 60k km, in for service this morning (basic service, no work unless disuses)

    Notes and conversation on

    1. RHF lower suspension arm has some play, its ok for at least 15k miles so could hold off for another year (€520 fitted)
    2. This is the kicker: Ad Blue tank showing a fault. Ad blue monitoring on dashboard is showing "unable to measure" and engine warning light is on. Mechanic stated that car flagged was an error and this was outcome, tank and pump needs replacing, ok to run on it for now but have first NCT due in hew year so kinda screwed (€1880 fitted). Dunno if was working before hand but in fairness can't remember last time I put Ad blue in it (ie haven't had the "need to refill adbue" message in a long time).

    Suppose my questions are has others seen this/is it a know issue after 4 only years (seems to happen boing by UK forums but not sure in such a short length of time) and is the costing about right (seems to be again on UK forums)?



Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,237 ✭✭✭ Allinall


    I'd be hopping mad if I was you.

    Did you buy the car new? If not, did you get any warranty when you bought?

    I'd certainly be looking for a second opinion before shelling out nearly €2k on something that really should not be a big deal.

    Maybe get on to Mercedes direct and see what they think?



  • Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭ higster


    Yup bought new at dealership that did the service with 3years warranty (obviously up a year ago). Don't have much in the way of 2nd opinions in area I think and stuck because of NCT coming up early Jan. I'll look up Mercedes direct gig. Thanks



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,943 ✭✭✭✭ Toyotafanboi


    Had two non franchise trade in's at work last week, a 181 520d and a 171 Audi A5, both had check engine lights on, and the Audi had an adblue error on too.


    The 520 needed an adblue tank and pump, €1520 ex VAT fitted by BMW.


    The A5 needed an adblue tank and pump, €1780 ex VAT fitted by Audi.


    In general i find passenger car adblue systems to be reliable but when theh do go wrong, they really only have two components, the injector or the tank.


    A lot of maunfacturers seem to lump the tank/ pump/ level sender together as one component.


    No specific experience with Mercedes but on the face of things the diagnosis and price seem plausable. Aren't we at a point with NCT's from 2022 where a static emissions system fault is now a fail, not a pass asvisory?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,051 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    Parts like that shouldn't fail in that time frame. The warranty is a non issue as you have much more protection under consumer law.


    Now the guys in the trade will start saying I'm talking BS so here's the statute so you can quote the part where it says I'm talking BS.





  • Registered Users Posts: 1,315 ✭✭✭ rodge123


    Need to get a new adblue injector in my 2019 A6 next week, within warranty still but I didn’t buy the car brand new.

    Id be of the same opinion as Del2005 above on certain components like that failing so soon. A little over 3 years or 60000kms would not be considered a reasonable amount of time to get from such a component of the car id imagine.

    If I’d bought my car brand new from main dealer Id pursue it through the small claims court if dealer was unwilling to come to some sort of reasonable compromise. Up to 2k I think in small claims.

    And just to back up that sale of goods act, some companies are excellent at proactively honouring it.

    As an example, my 6 year old MacBook Pro failed a few years back. I contacted Apple who had it inspected at a compub store. Turned out was a issue with graphics card if I remember correctly. They put a new motherboard and even a new battery into it all free of charge! I didn’t even have to quote the sale of goods act, they told me about it!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭ higster


    Thanks! I'm assuming its section 13 part 2..."defect which would render it a danger to the public, including persons travelling in the vehicle". Don;t think would fit the bill here or am I missing something?



  • Registered Users Posts: 46 Scag Mattress


    Friend was told he needed pump/tank for a C4 Picasso for 1800e.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,314 ✭✭✭✭ Cookie_Monster


    If new from a merc dealership I'd be pushing them for goodwill tbh



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,051 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    The part should last more than 4 years, there is older cars on the road with as blue tanks that haven't failed. Its not a consumable so shouldn't have failed, you got 4 years out of it so you won't be entitled to the full replacement cost but there's no way that you should be paying €1800 to get it fixed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭ higster


    "The part should last more than 4 years, there is older cars on the road with as blue tanks that haven't failed. Its not a consumable so shouldn't have failed, you got 4 years out of it so you won't be entitled to the full replacement cost but there's no way that you should be paying €1800 to get it fixed."


    Got onto sales guy that deal with (know him fairly well) and sold the "4 years, 60k km, really? That would turn me off another merc buy". Anyway, he's off to see what can do. Not expecting much tbh



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,051 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    They have 3 options to repair, replace or refund. This part shouldn't have failed so if the garage tells you to pay €1800 it's €25 for the small claims court.


    Hopefully your guy has more respect for his customers than the members of the trade who post here.




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,943 ✭✭✭✭ Toyotafanboi



    The most respectful thing you can do for someone in a situation like OP's is be straight with them and not pump them full of nonsense and set them up with false hope.


    If what you said was anywhere near reality businesses would buckle under the cost. Have a car with a fault, take it to a dealer, pay €25 to SCC and have it fixed for free. It doesn't happen. I've never seen it.


    If your car is outside of it's warranty period, it won't be happening, you will at a best case be offered a goodwill contribution at the dealers absolute discretion. There is no precedence for what you are suggesting. What you're suggesting doesn't happen in reality. Take it to SCC and see what happens.


    I just had a brief google on this as you seem so hell bent on it. It reads to me that if the repondent disagrees with the claim it goes to district court and citizens advice advises you get a solicitor at that point which immediately eclipses the cost of the small claims court value cap. So it's basically €25 for the court to send a letter to the company to politely threaten them to take action.


    Have you any examples of people being successful with this process in terms of a faulty car that is outside of manfacturers warranty?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,315 ✭✭✭ rodge123


    I think the issue is that a huge amount of people are simply not aware of their statutory rights.

    The last few paragraphs of this article probably summarisers it well:

    Six years? That is a very long time.

    Well, it does depend on multiple factors. The amount you pay for a product and the reasonable expectations as to how long it lasts are key here. If you spend €3,000 on a sofa and it falls apart after three years through no fault of your own then you can most likely seek redress under the Sale of Goods Act. Similarly if your spend €1,000 on a smart phone that just stops working after 14 months then you can seek redress. If the digital watch you bought for a fiver in a discount store breaks after five years , 11 months and 29 days and you wander in looking for a refund you can most likely whistle for it.”


    The key word been “reasonable”.

    In my non-legally educated option doubt a judge or anyone for that matter would deem it reasonable that a non consumable component like an adblue tank worth nearly 2k should only last 4 years.

    If a judge found in favour of the the consumer, I don’t have a clue what happens if dealer refuses to pay or challenges it like you say. Nothing stopping consumer giving up at that point if they don’t want Solicitor fees I suppose..has cost them €25 and some time.

    Probably veering into legal discussion.

    Apple honoured expensive fixes on my MacBook Pro a few years back based on this very statutory right. I didn’t even have to mention it to them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,864 ✭✭✭✭ mickdw


    Small claims court is very useful.

    25 quid to make your application.

    The company get opportunity to respond. Court will then likely review and award one way or other

    If business doesn't reply, I believe it's an automatic decision for the applicant.

    To be fair, I don't see how Mercedes or any other car brand can make a sensible defence for a non consumable non customer damaged €2k part needing replacing at less than 40k miles.

    Well worth a try anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,314 ✭✭✭✭ Cookie_Monster


    goodwill is manufacturer, not dealer. Merc Ireland will approve it based on dealer presenting the case to them.

    I've worked warrenty for VW/Audi/Skoda & Mitsi for a while and they will cover the majority of component failures either fully of partially for at least a year or two outside of warranty as long as we as the dealer can prove its not just wear and tear of accidental / purposeful damage. I am in NZ though, not Irl.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,554 ✭✭✭✭ galwaytt


    My brother just had the entire rear subframe of his 2010 E-class changed under warranty by M-B. Not even a quibble about it.

    Let the dealer make the case - only if that fails go to Merc yourself. Only if that's a deadend go to SCC or any other court.

    You need to focus on what's important: getting it fixed. Make the case. Be lucid.

    Point-scoring in the courtroom only breeds stress tbh.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,051 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    The most respectful thing you can do is read links that disagree with what you think. The fact that you keep mentioning warranty is getting embarrassing.


    Here is the law in an easier to read format as you appear to not be able to understand the statute.


    Consumer warranties and statutory rights

    Statutory rights

    Statutory rights are provided for by legislation (Irish law and EU law as transposed in Ireland). These act as a kind of “legal guarantee”, entitling consumers to seek redress where an item is faulty. Consumers may rely on their statutory rights regardless of whether an item has a warranty or not.

    Under Irish law, consumers have up to six years to seek redress for faulty or defective items (both new and second-hand).

    If the product is defective, the seller is generally responsible for providing redress.

    If a fault arises within six months of purchase, it is presumed to have existed at the time of purchase. For this reason, the consumer should not have to provide proof of the defect.

    If the fault arises more than six months after purchase, the seller may request that the consumer prove the fault did not arise as a result of misuse – for instance, by obtaining a report from an independent expert.

    Where an item is faulty, the seller may first offer a repair or replacement item. If this is not possible or fails to correct the problem, a refund may then be provided. Remedies for faulty goods must be provided free of charge.

     

    Warranties

    Warranties, or guarantees as they may also be known, are provided by the seller or manufacturer of an item. These differ from statutory rights in that the terms are largely set by the seller or manufacturer itself. It is important to note that warranties exist in addition to consumers’ statutory rights but do not replace them. If, for instance, a particular fault with the product is not covered by a warranty, the consumer may still rely on his or her statutory rights to seek a remedy.

    Information on the warranty should be provided in a written document or in a durable and accessible format. The exact duration, geographical coverage, and details of the party offering the warranty must be clearly specified.

    The duration of warranties varies. They may cover a short period of a few months or extend for several years. In general, more expensive items tend to have longer warranty periods.

    Warranties may be offered free of charge or against payment.

    The party offering the warranty is responsible for applying it – this may be the seller, manufacturer, or a third party.

    Warranties may not cover all aspects of the good. For example, a warranty on a tablet may cover defects or faults with the hardware (such as the battery or casing) but not necessarily problems with the software.

    If a fault develops in a product, consumers are advised to contact the seller first to report the issue. If there is a manufacturer or seller’s warranty on the product, read the warranty document carefully to see whether this particular fault is covered. If not, it may still be possible to rely on statutory rights to seek a remedy. If in doubt, contact our office for further advice.



    To add the EU passed a law that all products have to have a 2 year warranty to protect consumers from businesses who won't stand over their products, we already had stronger consumer protection.


    Sale of Goods and Associated Guarantees

    One of the most important pieces of EU consumer legislation is the Directive on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees (1999/44/EC). Under the Directive you have a minimum 2-year legal guarantee against faulty products, or products that do not look or work as advertised. These are known as your statutory rights. The national law in some Member States may allow for longer periods. In Ireland the time limit (also known as the limitation period) is 6 years.


    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer/consumer_laws/consumer_rights_in_eu.html


    What have I told the OP that is nonsense?

    I know of a few cases. Even people getting new cars



  • Registered Users Posts: 230 ✭✭ pale rider


    I am now in the same boat, a 2017 E220 52 km's up, my baby, requiring an adblue tank replacement, I am using a trusted Indi for years, the tank has been out and all components checked and software run etc etc, I have been quoted nearly €1575 inc vat for the part, I also owe labour and ad blue costs for the diagnosise and fitting of new tank, €2 - 2500 is what I am looking at.

    Owners forums in the UK and beyond are lit up with this subject, I called maybe 20 breakers all said the ad blue tank is nearly the first to go at around €550, I see one person has fitted two tanks to their car so a new replacement is no guarantee of it being a fix you can rely upon.

    Have been driving Mercedes as has the Mrs since the BMW timing chain engine fault back in the 2007-2011 diesels, this was the final straw that made me leave BMW, this is my third E class and the Mrs is on her 2nd smaller Mercedes, it will be our last, this component with the sensor in the adblue tank is badly designed and not fit for purpose.

    Shame on Mercedes for not standing behind this fault, they have zero respect for their customer, I called MSL ( the distributor ) today and was told to bring it to a dealer and they will go to Germany for goodwill but the goodwill as I well know if its approved and thats a big if will only cover the difference between Mercedes main dealer prices and my SIMI Indie so that Is a joke .

    I am not paying up to €2500, It was suggested to me to have the ECU remapped to bypass the ad blue system, apparantly a popular solution short term, I know that is wrong and not environmentally friendly but I am tempted.

    I'm buying a car with at least a five year warranty from new from now on and nothing with adblue.

    Stay away from Mercedes with an ad blue system, it is a ticking time bomb for owners.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,864 ✭✭✭✭ mickdw


    Faced with a 2500 bill and you are querying the environment angle.

    If it can be bypassed and not effect nct or anything, well that is the only answer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,975 ✭✭✭ ofcork


    Is every new diesel in the last few years using adblue now.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 230 ✭✭ pale rider


    Yes and the problem is not unique to Mercedes but in my case they chose to ignore the fault, their fault not the drivers.

    I had no idea adblue gave so many problems until my issue arise and I did some research, as these cars age repairing will become uneconomic.

    admit I’m burned on this one but I will not purchase a car using ad blue ever again, once bitten etc.

    and no more Mercedes either.



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