"Iarnród Éireann to spend €500m boosting rail freight services by 2040"

loyatemu

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/iarnr%C3%B3d-%C3%A9ireann-to-spend-500m-boosting-rail-freight-services-by-2040-1.4743972

OK, it's just yet another report but interesting to see some targets when IÉ has previously been fairly ambivalent about it's freight business. Also explicitly states they want to reopen the Foynes line.

marno21

I see clamour on social media about a lack of rail connection to Ringaskiddy and a lack of emphasis on freight rail at the roro port in Rosslare. The "I know nothing about freight" approach.

Reopen Foynes and Marino Point, and upgrade Waterford and Dublin. Not much more that can be done there and then focus on scaling up those services.

L1011

Reconnecting Marino Point is the most obvious thing to do ASAP, as well as presumably order more container flats and pockets.

With trucker strikes as well as the environmental angle, these should be expedited.

The report seems decent, from a skim at least.

Geuze

Can I ask, what is Marino Point?

It seems to be a former fertiliser plant?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/property/developmentconstruction/arid-40237682.html

Foynes port is mainly dry bulk, is that correct? No containers?

The suggestion above to re-open these rail links, that is in terms of what type of freight traffic?

L1011

Its the old IFI plant, but there is a new fertilser plant (to replace another one in the city) proposed for it.

Foynes are proposing to install container handling facilities; however bulk traffic from future mines in Limerick/Tipperary has been proposed for many years.

There is also a disconnected container terminal in Cork (Tivoli), but the Port of Cork are moving containers to Ringaskiddy which is on the wrong side of the harbour to have a rail connection so there may not be much point doing it.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118256503#Comment_118256503

Isn't Waterford's north quay going to be redeveloped for residential and commercial? Effectively cutting off the network from the port...?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118257421#Comment_118257421

"Waterford" in this case means Belview.

Economics101

This is very good news and conditions are likely to favour lots more container-based rail freight

1. Increased fuel costs and carbon taxes will tilt the balance towards rail (which is about 3 times as efficient in fuel terms)
2. Even if we do little to start with, freight from mainland Europe may well go from Ro-Ro (trucks) to Lo-Lo (containers), especially when coming from places several 100 kms from English Channel ports. This would tilt the balance further.
3. It should further the case for widespread rail electrification by spreading fixed costs over more traffic (and electric traction is cheaper to operate and maintain)

Unfortunately Dublin post is congested and not easy to configure for more rail operations, but Belview (Waterford is an under-exploited resource. Foynes is on the wrong side of the country for much container traffic (it seems to be a pet obsession of the Transport Minister). Better post facilities on the East or South coasts are vital.

Another thing which needs fixing are the combination of high access charges for rail operators and much lower taxes on trucks in the past few years. You don't hear much about that from the militant truckers.

Economics101

I've looked at the Irish Rail website for news about this. At first sight, nothing, but then hidden in the Freight section of the site there is this: https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/getmedia/685e9919-f012-4018-879b-06618bb536af/IE_Rail-Freight-2040-Strategy_Public_Final_20210715.pdf

It loos good, especially when you strip away the management-speak cliches. Interestingly it raises the track access charges issue.

end of the road

another report of which nothing of it will happen i would bet.

cynical i know but look, reports after reports have come and gone in relation to the railways and well, nothing.

i want to be proven wrong, i really do, but no point in being happy about a report until something is actually done in relation to it, shovels in the ground so to speak.

CreadanLady

There are disused freight yards at all the major towns and cities which could be brought back into operation with reasonable investment. Set up contracts with local hauliers for distribution locally over the last 10km or so.

Ringaskiddy had a railway coming very close by previously and the alingment is still substantially intact, so it is not an impossibility to bring a new rail connection into the port there if the will and funding was there. THey can bring a feckin motorway out there as it is, and a rail connection would be a fraction of the price tag.

Hopefully the plans will be as ambitious as what was proposed in the 1970s by CIE the only difference I hope it is invested in fully this time rather than skimping back.

The only thing is that a substantial investment in locomotives and rolling stock is needed. In the interim, there are still a good few Baby GMs and possibly even a few 001 and 201 Metrovicks that could be leased back from ITG and put into service. ITG would only be delighted with the lease revenue and having IE carry out re-commissioing of mothballed locomotives.

We have lost a lot of rolling stock, so new manufacture of bulk wagons and flats would be needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRhseqTP3Uk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejsfyh2n-ks

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118258307#Comment_118258307

Sorry, but most old freight yards are not suitable, and could not generate enough traffic. It looks like the idea is to concentrate on a combination of distance and tonnage which is optimal for rail freight to and from a few high-volume locations . Small GMs and old Metrovicks are very few, are hopelessly underpowered for heavy fast freight haulage and probably a maintenance nightmare.

The report is correct in its recognition of the need for investment in extra track capacity, new locomotives and new rolling stock. As for Ringaskiddy, no chance, look at the map.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118258307#Comment_118258307

None of the heritage locos are in any condition, or to a reliability standard to go hauling freight.

You cannot have the potential of a total failure/seizure of a 65+ year old loco blocking a mainline for hours.

There are also bog all of them to begin with, and no spare parts supply.

Freight will be handled by 071/201s until they get something new, likely Vossloh/Stadler Eurolights or similar - manufacturer that is quite willing to build to any and all gauges.

Ringaskiddy will not be reconnected, at least not via the route of the CPBR. A 3' line that didn't connect to the rest of the network is not something of any use in building a new line. Keeping Tivoli open for operators that wish to use rail is vastly more plausible.

Charles Babbage

Are there any Irish gauge goods wagons or locomotives in Australia?

Itssoeasy

Well Marino point should be an obvious one to start with given that I think it was only completely disconnected in recent years when there was upgrades to the cobh line. Be good to see freight back in cork but would they need to put any extra tracks back into the limited yard in Kent or will it be enough with what is left.

Girl Geraldine

Ringaskiddy should be connected. It's a major container port.

But ringaskiddy port is a serious stupid location. It was never going to work. Why ie and the port did away with North Esk is beyond belief. It was ideally located for ship, road and rail, and had gantries and everything.

Baby GMs could still be supported by EMD and the 001 and 201 metrovicks could be fully refurbished and fitted out with new components and systems in inchicore. The 001s are Co-co and could be fitted with uprated engines and motors to provide the power needed. Vossloh eurolights are only bo_bo and have less power than a 071. Plus I cannot think of anything more banal and pedestrian than one of those. They have the same appeal as an icr. Maybe if they could be paired with some coaching stock. None of the retro liveries would work on them though as they have no heritage.

Cement could be good back on rails and bagged fertilizer is still a huge demand. There is a massive yara warehouse in rinkaskiddy and if the port was given a rail connection we could see a return of bagged fertilizer trains radiating out from cork to local depots in surrounding regions.

Girl Geraldine

Atlantic Dawn

It would be great to see freight running off peak throughout the night, is there any legislation governing operating hours of the railways?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260751#Comment_118260751

but what would be the point of essentially destroying heritage items, that is exactly what would be happening in the unlikely event the couple of 001 and 201 metro vics were brought back into service and then reengineered with new engines etc. they are in preservation as they are for a reason.

it would be different if they were brought back as they are and whatever issues sorted so they could operate on the main line, but the reality is that you would get brand new locomotives for the same price or a bit more then this, we are not the uk where there are plenty of spares to keep heritage locomotives in daily main line service.

forget about it, it's not going to happen.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260751#Comment_118260751

I'm sorry, but your post is largely a nostalgia trip, and you just so many facts wrong, I hardly know where to start. Have you had a look at where Ringaskiddy is on the map and how far away it is from the nearest railway?

whisky_galore

Reports only butter the parsnips of the people who write reports.

Just another photo op of people standing smiling awkwardly, bedecked in hi vis.

L1011

Every time there is a suggestion of any form of service expansion - freight or passenger, we get people convinced that heritage locos are going to come back to mainline service

They aren't. Ever. They were retired for a reason and are in no condition to go in to regular service again. EMD are not going to start supporting equipment that has been retired for a decade, and invasive restorations would be uneconomical and take too long to be of any use anyway - you'd re-gauge modern second hand kit from abroad far faster.

loyatemu

yeah - €500m freight plan: Item one, refurbish a handful of 1960s relics. Maybe they could relay the RDS branch to bring cattle to the Spring Show too?

Itssoeasy

I agree with @L1011 for as much as I’d love those old locos back running the reality is it’s not happening ever. Now, I don’t know whether the 1994 version of the class 201s sitting in inchicore could be brought back to use for freight. I know they aren’t equipped with stuff that’s needed for passenger duties but I don’t recall that being an issue for freight. I think they have a far better chance of been brought back into service.

end of the road

you might, and it's a big might at this stage to be honest, get perhapse about 3 to 5 of the stored 201s back using the best bits of what is available from the stored lot.

so the better of the body shells, bogies, engines and whatever else is salvagible.

certainly has a tiny possibility unlike baby gms and metrovics, and even that tiny is very tiny as i said.

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118263224#Comment_118263224

I'm right in thinking 10 were originally withdrawn around 2008 so that’s over a decade sitting outside in the Irish weather and being stripped for parts. When you put it like that @endoftheroad i can see why you say 3-5 at a push but surely to god they haven’t striped them bare, although there was 230 and 216 which had pretty big rebuilds so there’s that.

Maybe the 071s and the in service 201s will do the job fine. Surely IR have this thought through as to requirements needed.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118264222#Comment_118264222

depends on the increases if any i guess, with current levels both classes seem to be managing but with increases they will probably need a few extra, all though i guess replacement of the enterprise stock will free up some which may be enough.

is 230 back in service? i believe there were rumblings of it being brought back and i believe some work may have been done but i think work was stopped?

i would hope IE will have thought it through as to the requirements but my cynical hat says probably they won't, hopefully i am proven wrong.

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118264300#Comment_118264300

Sorry that bit about 230 is worded badly. I should have said it has a big rebuild but I don’t think it’s back in service. Although with 224 now gone to loco heaven after a unnecessary welding job, maybe they will use the guts of that to bring 230 back.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118264348#Comment_118264348

i would reccon so to be honest.

Girl Geraldine

I think a few baby GMs could be brought back. A good few of them are still in running order and there are others that probably need not a huge amount of work.

There are also a few 001s that are running or are in near running condition. And I think there may be 121s in close to running order too.

Maybe railways have locos as old if not older than ours in regular service. It seems to be an Irish thing to scrap stuff that is barely in mid life....Mk3s or the 2700s being a perfect example. Or the non push-pull 201s - surely it would have made more sense to retrofit them with the push-pull equipment and sweat the Mk3s or 2700 sets converted for loco haul, just like what was done with the AEC railcars in later years.

However, there's no doubt that if the bulk freight services and liner trains are to return, we will still need additional locomotives.

What are the options out there that we would be likely to see? Is there any options out there with some sort of character and appeal comparable to what the GMs had/have?

What services are we likely to see a return of?

I think cement. But we'd need a new fleet of bogie cement wagons. Are there any of these left?

There are large numbers of container flats, LPs LXs and so on languishing in various yards and sidings, some cut off from the network, that could be rehabilitated.

We might need a new batch of mine wagons if mine traffic comes in..

I also don't agree with the ringaskiddy trail connection being impossible. The deep water berth is about 2km from rafeen where the disused cb&pr alignment is still in place. So you are telling me 2km of single track is impossible, but yet 12km of motorway which has a vastly greater land take and cost is going to begin within months. I don't buy it. The only thing preventing it is the will to do it.

end of the road

oh for god sake not this crap about loco hauled 2700s again, it was funny the first couple of times but it's worn out now.

the 2700s were heaps of ****, decrepid from the minute they came here, converting them to loco haulage to be hauled by what would be pointless as there is nowhere for them to operate, nobody wants them.

even sorting them out to get back into service as the multiple units that they are seems to be uneconomic because they are junk and they have been out of service for nearly 10 years now.

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118265027#Comment_118265027

Oh where to start on this post

• there is one 001 in running order out a total of four preserved so no a good few aren’t in running order or near it and also they are well over 50 years old and aren’t far off being longer out of service then they were in service.
• there is two baby gms is working order which are B141 and 146 but again they aren’t young locos and the ones that aren’t scraped haven’t run in years. As @endoftheroad rightly pointed out the non push pull 201s would be a stretch to get working so the baby gms have less chance than Bob hope coming back to life.
• There’s one 121 in Connolly shed which is being worked on and has been repainted and looks well, but given it’s a single cab loco when lots of places on the Irish network are dead ended and it can’t run bonnet first it’s not very useful now is it ?
• I will concede that the mk3s being cut up was a poor move.
• What large amount of wagons ? I’ve seen a couple in Kent station but that was before that yard was gutted, and any siding that isn’t in use was ripped up.
• you talk as if ringaskiddy is youhgal and it could be reconnected somewhat easily(obviously there’s a lot involved in youghal) Was it ever even connected to any rail line ?

L1011

There is no circumstance in the world where they're going to use heritage locos for mainline. Just get the idea out of your head

The Mk3s were cut up (shouldn't have been, but they're done); they are not going to throw huge amounts of money to convert 2700s or 8200s to loco hauled - the effort required to do that to a modern train is immense, its not like pulling slam doors original-2600s where you just need to connect brake lines and lighting power.

The only retired stock that could ever come back to mainline are some of the 201s. And that's even unlikely.

The CB&P alignment is narrow gauge, runs through housing and terminates in the city - not at the existing rail alignment. It would not be reused for any rail link to Ringaskiddy. If there's going to be a rail link it won't be using that alignment.

Markcheese

What exactly do people envision being carried on this reinvigorated rail freight service - Irish rail couldn't run rail freight when we didn't have a motorway network,and they had rail connected ports and freight yards.. I don't see them being capable of competeing with trucks on motorways now ,except maybe for mine traffic...

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118265402#Comment_118265402

Irish Rail ran piles of rail freight pre-motorway - until Bell went bust, and then the ILDA strike encouraged the move of Guinness, Irish Cement, IFI to road.

With rising road diesel prices, truck driver shortages and so on there is a market to get containers back. Getting a distribution partner who can handle rail depot to final site would help hugely - Irish Rail should not try return to that market themselves as its not their competency.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the truck motorway speed limit returned to 80km/h as an environmental measure too.

They were not competitive in an era of cheap road diesel, no truck driver shortages, 90km/h motorway speed limits on an expanding motorway network and so on. Times have changed.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118265402#Comment_118265402

If one is serious about carbon emissions and carbon pricing, rail should regain an advantage over trucks, especially on longer-distance routes from ports. IE already are competitive on long runs from Waterford and Dublin to Ballina.

If you read the IE document, they mention other potential bulk traffics. Also there are examples from the UK and Europe of rail being competitive in situations similar to those found in Ireland.

Sad to see a changed and positive approach by IA met with such negativity. I feel that the greatest danger to this development will be from the entrenched interests in the NTA and the DoT

Jamie2k9

Not read the report in detail however it's really a marketing gimmick. I am not sure freight will ever increase to projected levels and that isn't all down to IE.

New Wagons, Timber operating to Belview, Cork-Dublin container, Other Timber flows are possibly the most achievable targets this side of 2030. The development at Limerick J is positive and could work well for container flow out of Cork.

Losty Dublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118265431#Comment_118265431

IFI traffic ceased when IFI closed it's Irish operatons. Contrary to urban myths it had little to do with the ILDA whatsoever. Guinness had been winding down keg traffic from the late 90's onwards in favour of a logistic model of point to point combined keg and gas deliveries while they considered closing their Irish brewing concerns. Likewise, Gypsum traffic had been winding down from a train a day to about a train a week. When it did go to road haulage in 2001, it was carried by a CIE road haulage subsidiary.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118268004#Comment_118268004

Jamie2k9, you should read the report just a little more before being so dismissive. I am really pleased to see IE take the initiative and make what looks like a good case: the NTA and DoT bureaucracies would take forever and spend millions on consultants before producing any sort of document.

We are living in changed times. If the emissions question is so serious as to warrant electrifying private car transport, then its surely serious enough to warrant shifting from trucks to trains, which when suitably loaded emit less than quarter the amount of CO2 per tonne-km. If the railways were electrified, emissions could be halved again and if the electricity was generated by wind, hydro, solar or nuclear you could virtually get to zero.

I get a little tired about excessive focus on new lines (usually in the West) which neglects the urgent need to remove pinch-points on the existing network and enable significantly greater capacity. The IE freight proposal quite properly focuses on this.

The document is a huge challenge to a transport minister who is also leader of the Green party.

L1011

Randomly checking something on Google Maps in Sligo and noticed that the container gantry seems to still be there on the Sligo Quay branch

And probably in serviceable condition too

Obviously needs someone to want to use it, and loco/wagon availability, and the branch to be reconnected, for that to ever happen though.