US Religious Minister

Freddie Mcinerney

I just seen a Christian Minister dying of Covid. Went through some of his pages and other given their condolence.

What I notice, he and other Ministers seem to be quite wealthy.

Would that be normal for US ministers?

Peregrinus

There is no "normal" here. There's a wide range of incomes for Christian ministers in the US. This varies by denomination, and also varies within denominations, and there are also lots of Ministers who don't be belong to any denomination. Some are very well-paid and a few are very wealthy indeed, but at the other end of the scale there are many who don't earn a living wage from ministry, and who work another job to feed and house themselves and their families.

Freddie Mcinerney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249086#Comment_118249086

The very wealthy seem to be fanatical. Why is that?

Peregrinus

What you mean by "fanatical"?

Freddie Mcinerney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249092#Comment_118249092

Kenneth Copeland.

Peregrinus

Can you be a bit more helpful? I'm not asking you to name a fanatic, but to identify the views that you consider fanatical that seem to you to be held by wealthy pastors generally.

Cookie_Monster

what do you expect OP? Churches are just a way if funnelling money from attendees to the pastors / whoever runs the church.

100k average salary, good money in blabbing on about jesus and friends

https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/pastor-salary

Freddie Mcinerney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249107#Comment_118249107

Sweet for them.

Freddie Mcinerney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249100#Comment_118249100

Listen to Copeland.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249095#Comment_118249095

This maniac - religion is a good business to be in if you have enough maniacs following you who give you all their money

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBkegy4aDvk

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249110#Comment_118249110

No offence, Freddie, but I'm not sure I want to spend my time researching your opinions if you can't be arsed to tell me what they are.

And yet I personally know dozens of pastors around the world who don't take a wage at all and work full time jobs. They're more the norm than the headline stars mentioned above. Z

Thinkingaboutit

A good few must regard bling as a sign of credibility, perhaps a character of Prosperity Gospel, where wealth is a sign of God's favour. Apostolic poverty after the model of St Francis of Assisi, where even meat was avoided unless given to him by a host, seems quite out of fashion among the notable ones.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249319#Comment_118249319

That's possibly because ministers of religion may be unlikely to become notable unless they are rich and ostentatious. Media culture, and particularly US media culture, is obsessed with celebrity and display. There might be only a small proportion of ministers who are conspicuously rich, but the media coverage will be devoted to them, and to ministers who become involved in sexual or abuse scandals. The rest will never be noticed at all.

Mr. CooL ICE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35K6vQRt67g

Shilock

These superstar pastor's make a lot of money. People give donations and pay to hear the word of the lord. They fill people with a mixture of joy and fear, the perfect cult. Nothing more powerful than a person who can make people experience fear,joy, laughter and shame all in an hour. It's been done throughout history....

Freddie Mcinerney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249397#Comment_118249397

You would think many of them don't believe what they preach.

Shilock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249492#Comment_118249492

I'd say a lot of them are on the fence who have no moral compass, potential sociopaths, psychopaths who prey on the vunerable. Probably failed CEOs etc

Effects

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249203#Comment_118249203

If a pastor is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, then he's not doing the work of god, he's serving himself.

riffmongous

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God"

Funny how they or their flock never seem to remember that one

Freddie Mcinerney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249752#Comment_118249752

Exactly. Hubbard had the right idea.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249826#Comment_118249826

Do you actually know what that means? Obviously not given your comment.

It was a gate that couldn't take a camel and it's load together. The rider took the load off for the camel to go through and then took on his cargo.

Freddie Mcinerney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118253890#Comment_118253890

It is for meditation as well. If you are rich in thought, you will find it difficult to transcend.

Effects

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118253890#Comment_118253890

So basically Jesus was saying rich people can go to heaven, but it just takes two trips to get all your wealth in?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254247#Comment_118254247

He said it was easier for a camel. He didn't say it was impossible for a rich man.

You also see the early church in Acts had rich men who had land. They sold it and gave to those in need.

But of course there are no rich men in heaven. They leave it all behind when they die. 😁

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249107#Comment_118249107

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249752#Comment_118249752

Oh, sure, no argument from me. But that's not the point that Freddie is making. His complaint is not that millionaire pastors are an obscenity; it's that millionaire pastors hold "fanatical" views. But he can't or won't say what views he is talking about.

Montage of Feck

“It is a sin directly against one's neighbour, since one man cannot over-abound in external riches, without another man lacking them.”

-Thomas Aquinous

old_aussie

Were they playing "another one bites the dust" in the background?

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118253890#Comment_118253890

Bullshit, there is of course the fact that there is no evidence that the gate ever existed. It was just made up a thousand years later

And why would the Apostles have reacted with shock to Jesus saying this if it was so straightforward? Funny how you don't remember that bit

Freddie Mcinerney

Who would you think play fanatical up at the podium?

A Televangelist Begs for a Private Jet | The Daily Show - YouTube

Peregrinus

"The 'Eye of the Needle' was a narrow gate in the Jerusalem city wall" is one explanation of this particular text but, as riffmongous points out, there is no evidence that there was ever a gate so named, and the claim that this text refers to an actual gate can't be traced to earlier than the ninth century. So it looks bogus.

There's another possible explanation, which is that the Aramaic word for a camel is extremely similar to the Aramaic word for a rope, and there may have been a translation error when the oral tradition (in Aramaic) was written down (in Greek) by the author of Mark. That, at least, would make the metaphor work - "It's easier to thread a needle with rope than it is to do X".

The third and most likely explanation - because it's the only one for which we have any evidence - is that at the time "eye of the needle" was an established figure of speech for any narrow gap or opening, either real or figurative. The phrase turns up in other writings of the era, including in the Jewish Talmud (where it's elephants, not camels, that are unlikely to go through the eye of a needle) and, slightly later, in the Qu'ran, where a camel passing through a needle's eye is a metaphor for impossibility. So Jesus wasn't referring to a particular gate in Jerusalem; just to narrow gaps in general, and his point was not about laden versus unladen camels. He was saying that it's impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

According to the scripture, that's certainly what the disciples understood him to be saying because, when he says the bit about the eye of the needle . . .

... they were exceedingly astonished and said among themselves, "Then who can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "For human beings it is impossible, but not for God. All things are possible for God.

For the prosperity gospel merchants, this means that so long as you have faith in God, the impossible becomes possible, and therefore your riches are no longer a problem. You can wallow in your heap of gold coins like Scrooge McDuck, and still get into heaven, because you are justified by your faith.

That's not the orthodox interpretation, though. Jesus isn't saying that giving your wealth away is a kind of entry price you would have to pay to get into heaven only, fortunately, God doesn't charge entry to those who have faith. Rather, in the kingdom of God (which, NB, is not the same thing as heaven or the afterlife) people give their wealth away, because generosity, sharing and a raising up of the poor and downtrodden are what characterise the kingdom of God; a world in which people hoard their wealth is, by definition, not the kingdom. And, therefore, if you are clinging to your wealth, you won't enter the kingdom because you don't want to.

The disciples are bothered by this for two reasons. First, a desire for wealth is understandable; wealth give you security, the knowledge that you can feed and house yourself and your dependants and, if you have enough of it, reassurance that you'll be able to do that next year and the year after. Who wouldn't want that? Secondly, what Jesus is saying goes against established religious tradition which was that, if you lived a fortunate life — propserity, contentment, a happy home, lots of kids — that was a sign of God's favour. Jesus is basically saying that you should trust in God to provide the things that matter, not in a store of gold. And, if you do have gold, that's not good because it provides you with food, housing, etc, but because it allows you to provide food, housing, etc to others, which is what characterises the kingdom.

Televangelists: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO) - YouTube

Another example from the U.S.

I can only imagine that these are the extreme ones?

Ash.J.Williams

:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy4z_9OnNo8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254964#Comment_118254964

The city was destroyed. It was a common security feature from my reading.

Of course you're ignoring that in the context of the discussion Jesus had told the rich ruler to sell his possessions and then follow Him.

Its not my job to defend the millionaires. I just know the pastors I know aren't and many of them are living hand to mouth having lost their jobs and associated income in the last 2 years.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254964#Comment_118254964

Charles Watson-Wentworth, 2nd Marquess of Rockingham built one so he could drive a coach through it

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249372#Comment_118249372

I always thought one of the main issues the protestant denominations had with Catholicism and the pope etc, was all the grandeur and showiness connected to it? That's what I was once told anyway, that they prefer their faith to be a more toned down affair - simple plain chapel, humble, no frills etc.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118266025#Comment_118266025

Well, clearly they don't all prefer that.

Hotblack Desiato

Fools and their money.