A really basic f1 engine question

dulpit

Hey all, this is probably a super basic question, but I've tried googling and can't get clarity. Are the engines used by teams with same manufacturer completely interchangeable? eg could you take an engine from a Williams and literally plonk it into a mclaren? Or are there specific customisations per team?

ednwireland

as far as I remember a new engine needs a chassis redesign so no you cant drop a different engine.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-merc-engine-not-optimised/

this mentions a car redesign for McLaren to fit the merc engine in.

oh and the gearboxes would be completely different as well.

Lawlesz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135760#Comment_118135760

I am pretty sure McLaren had to redesign the chassis because they previously had a Honda engine in that car. From what I understand, the engines supplied to Williams, AM etc have to be the same as the manufacturer team. Matt Carter had some good insights on Missed Apex a few months ago, talking of how the manufacturers supply engineers to the customer teams to manage the engines through the season, and he questioned where their loyalties may lay...

As far as I remember the Honda was particularly small/tightly packaged so other engines might be closer.

There's no specific technical reason the engines couldn't be used in other chassis, would require a decent amount of software updates I'd imagine plus the physical practicality of fitting it on/in the chassis as they're stressed members of the suspension.

dulpit

I think the question has been misinterpreted here. I assumed that when a team changed suppliers they'd need a redesign, but I'm wondering about today. Would a Mercedes engine that's assigned to Williams be identical to one of McLaren's or Mercedes?

I remember years ago that some teams used get a suppliers main engine from the previous season (was it sauber who used run the ferrari from year before?) but I thought they had to provide the same now?

Flinty997

How about a F1 engine in a people carrier...

https://youtu.be/wZ4X4l56Q1w

I assume the engine will be a straight swap in a chassis that's designed for it. If not designed for it then no..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139551#Comment_118139551

Ah right ok. Yeah at the minute they're all the same. Back in the day there were works and customer teams, some engine manufacturers didn't have a team so one of the teams running their engine would be closer partners, kinda like a quasi-works set up.

In the current regulations it came down to individual deals. So Merc would get updates before Williams, Ferrari before Sauber etc. Then there was the issue that works teams had extra engine modes so it was decreed that all engine users must have access to all the engine modes.

I think as it is the engines at a works team might just be a component or two "ahead" for the most part. But other than little changes and revisions this season the Williams engines should at least be the same as the very end of last season's Merc, if not what Merc had at the start of this season.

blueser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139582#Comment_118139582

It'd make the school run interesting!

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141818#Comment_118141818

The power units are homologated so Merc shouldn't be getting anything before Williams and Ferrari shouldn't be getting anything before Sauber as every engine should be the same. Ferrari did use a little bit of a loophole this year, not homologating a new engine at the start of the season but continuing to use the 2020 engine, until they homologated the new one quite late this year - something that has paid dividends in overturning the fight with McLaren. So in that case they'd have gotten the new engine early, but that's not the usual circumstances.

There's lots of stuff around the engine, from software to fuel to transmission, that can vary from team to team and is sometimes supplied by the manufacturer and sometimes developed by the customer themselves. All of these can be upgraded at different cadences for each team and this is where manufacturers usually get the best stuff first.

Thats all in theory at least. When you look at the power boost that came with Hamilton's new engine at Brazil it's hard to imagine it's identical to the one they homologated at the start of the season so no doubt teams still find loopholes to sneak upgrades in where they shouldn't.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139551#Comment_118139551

Yeah they are supposed to be the same but then again it's hard to imagine that the engine in Hamilton's car is identical to the one in Latifi's car.

LollipopJimmy

It's funny, apparently a lot of the Honda reliability problems on their return were down to McLaren insisting on making a 'Size 0' package work.

mickdw

The engines should be identical but they change for 'reliability' reasons at every update through season.

The Mercedes unit out of the Mercedes car would bolt up perfectly to the Williams gearbox and when fitted out with Williams mounts and ancillaries would fit right in.

Should start up too when wired up with Williams system.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237347#Comment_118237347

Ya but alot of the overall problems were due to McLaren being a shambles at that time.

Team moral was shot and needed a change. Eric bouillier I believe caused havoc there and blamed Honda at every opportunity.

LollipopJimmy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237402#Comment_118237402

There's a man that seemed to be followed by chaos

mickdw

Screenshot_20211129-142841.png

Bouillier with Mansour Ijaz - the fake investor that promised to buy a third of the team. Didn't come up with the money and team went into administration.

That guy almost seems legit now though when we see what the Rich Energy fella got up to in F1.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237388#Comment_118237388

This is the first definitive answer to my question. Thanks!

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118178792#Comment_118178792

That's true about the Ferrari Engine but it's worth noting that Ferrari took penalties to get the new engines because they had used their allocation for the year. Haas and Alfa have both been able to stay within their engine allocation for they year so they're not using the final upgraded 2021 version which is in the Ferrari. You're not wrong in anything you've said but we're in a position where different Ferrari powered teams have different spec engines.

The Haas and Alfa teams are probably not in a position to just buy the upgraded engine. They're probably devilish expensive which is fine for a bigger team but not ok for a smaller team to absorb that cost. If the engine failed due to a Ferrari error then Ferrari would probably have to pay for the new engine but a crash which broke the engine would probably be up to the team to pay for.

dulpit

On a crash affecting an engine - if you are in a crash that ruins an engine, and the crash was objectively not the driver's fault (e.g. if you get speared by someone else) - does the replacement engine count towards your count for the year?

LollipopJimmy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118299945#Comment_118299945

Max had to take a penalty due to Silverstone.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118299945#Comment_118299945

Good question. The engine supplier would probably argue that it wasn't their engine's fault so it's down to the drive/team and then they work out some kind of a deal (made up example: the manufacturer knocks some money off the replacement engine and the drivers need to attend some extra manufacturer sponsorship events). I think these kinds of fights take place all year but we don't tend to hear about them unless they boil over.

These kinds of things are covered in the contracts but it's like they say about contracts, you only look at them twice - the day you sign them and the day something goes wrong.

dulpit

I was talking about the f1 limit before you have to take a penalty, not the commercial arrangement...

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301370#Comment_118301370

Oh yeah, fair one. In that case then that's the team/driver's problem and penalties apply as usual

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301370#Comment_118301370

Yes, max had to take one after lewis crashed him out of silverstone. AFAIK Perez also had to take one after being torpedo by bottas's bowling ball actions.