New espresso machine - help!

Hyperbollix

Hi all,

Bought a Delonghi ECP 35.31 recently and I cannot get anything out of it approaching drinkable. I knew there was a bit more to these machines than my trusty old nespresso but I can't believe how hard a time I'm having not getting anything but drain water from it. Maybe someone could point me in the right direction.

I'm using the machine as is out of the box with the pressurized filter basket. The supplied two scoop filter is taking about 17g of pre ground coffee. Have tried both Lavazza Oro from the supermarket and a bag of Columbian Supremo from Elite Bean in Kilkenny. Have done the rounds on Youtube so I think I have the stuff properly tamped etc before going on the machine. The machine has no measured presets so I just gauge how much espresso to add for cappuccino for my particular cups. Apart from once where the end result was reasonable, almost everything I've made has faintly tasted of washing up liquid. It's weak, bitter and awful basically.

The supermarket coffee is slightly courser grind and the flow rate through the filter is good, while the Elite Bean stuff is very very fine and the machine is struggling to pump through the shot, mostly dripping. Both of them taste terrible in the end.

I've decided to scrap the pressurized basket and ordered a non pressurized type to see if that makes any difference since the agreed wisdom is these can be a problem....

Would appreciate any advice from people who've may have been in the same boat as me and solved it!

adrian522

So, I'd start by weighing the coffee before pulling the shot so you have consistency there. I'd also weigh the output go go for around 1:2.

So 17g of ground coffee should be giving around 35g of espresso.

Once you are in that ballpark you need to look at the timing. A well extracted shot will be abound 25-30 seconds, so 17g in, 35g out in 25-30 seconds, should produce a fairly good shot.

IF we are struggling to hit these numbers play around with your dose, (less coffee will reduce the time to pull the shot, more coffee will increase the time). Try to get it to 25-30 seconds and keep the 1:2 ratio.

As you don't have a grinder you can't make grind adjustments but you can make adjustments with the dose. The move to a non presusriesed basket will be good. Go for a VST or IMS basket if you can.

Best of luck!

Hyperbollix

V

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126803#Comment_118126803

Thanks for the tips. Will try this and report back.

Would you say the awful tasting shots are more to do with wrong ratio/brew time than the type of basket.....? ie the non pressurized one will only improve an already good setup but wont make up for wrong ratios/brew time. I was under the impression the pressurized basket sort of masks issues with grind size / ratios/ brew times and should theoretically be easier to get a good result with.

adrian522

Yeah, I'm not sure to be honest, I've never used a pressurised basket so can't really say.

Krusty_Clown

Under-extractions and over-extractions can both taste pretty lousy (watery and/or bitter). It does take practise to hit the sweet spot. Stick with it - it'll be worth it in the long run and you'll become a whizz at dialling in your routine. Pressurized baskets are really about creating a crema when you're using substandard coffee and don't have everything dialled in properly - so you can still get lousy tasting shots - they'll just have a pretty looking crema. The biggest gap in your setup is buying pre-ground coffee. The Lavazzo Oro is probably ground for filter coffee, so is unsuitable for espresso machines. I haven't heard of Elite Bean in Kilkenny. Do they roast their own coffee? If not, they're just re-packaging someone else's (probably Discount Coffee), and it may be difficult to determine if it is freshly roasted and freshly ground - it's really hard to get good shots with old roasted coffee. Their website is a bit dodge (it's a lorem ipsom template) and their facebook page shows them using domestic machines, like Sage. It doesn't necessarily mean they're not supplying good coffee, but the grind and freshness of the coffee are important variables.

Hyperbollix

Thanks Krusty, good info there. This espresso business is a much bigger minefield than I thought! The Oro is indeed a fairly rough grind and the water flys through the basket making a fast shot. Even with the double size basket.

I'm still waiting on the non pressurized basket but in the meantime have only found some success by using the single shot basket that came with the machine. The Elite bean stuff is very finely ground (possibly too fine for this pressurized basket) and it couldn't make a shot with the double dose in the bigger basket. With the single, it produced a reasonably ok shot because it had less coffee to get through, but I can't say it tasted great, just not bitter.

Having seen online how crucial a good grinder in order to get the coffee into a state which will work well with the machine you have, I think I may be wasting my time here. Even if I buy good beans, if I can't adjust the grind fairly precisely, Im not sure how I can get a good shot here.

Another question is the water temp. I've allowed this machine to heat up and flushed water through the empty basket 2 / 3 times and the temp of the water is not coming close to anything like 90c. I'm waiting on a thermometer to be delivered to be sure, but I can almost leave my finger in the water that lands in a warm cup straight from the shower head. It feels like nearer to 60/70c.

Will wait for the couple of accessories to arrive and see what happens

Alanstrainor

Those temperatures are way off. It should be at ~90C-95C for espresso. There may be something wrong with the machine if it cannot get up to temp.

I use a small scales to weight the coffee and the shot as it comes out. It's really important for dialling it in, as using a scoop is just very inaccurate. I get very noticeable differences with 0.3g of coffee either side. So the tolerances are very tight. Which is another reason every espresso forum harps on about getting the best grinder possible.

I do think espresso can be a bit of a black hole that you can fall into. Especially since almost every online resource will just be telling you to spend 1.5K on a beginner setup. Really I don't think you need to spend anywhere near that, and the law of diminishing returns comes into play very quickly. It seems your machine gets quite good reviews if we take it for what it is. I would say even a more basic espresso grinder would change things dramatically.

Hyperbollix

Ok, so I got the thermometer and the non presurized basket....

First off the thermometer is showing 85-90c for the water that drops into the basket straight from the group head. I'm going to give it the benefit of the doubt that there is a couple of degrees more on that water from the boiler so maybe we are in or around the right temp for espresso.....

Have tried the non pressurized basket and had no success. I can only dose up to 15g properly in this 51mm basket and no matter what tamping technique etc, Im getting fast shots which are very very messy.

But I tried something which did actually work and the end result was decent. No sourness or bitterness to speak off...

I put back in the pressurised basket and reground the Lavazza Oro stuff in my old blade grinder. As it comes out of the bag, it is far too rough for espresso. Once it was reduced to a finer grind with no boulders, I added 15g to the basket and crossed my fingers. What do you know, but it pulled a smooth, uniform shot with a linear dark to light colouring and I got about 33g in 25 seconds. No sour smell from the espresso and the taste was quite nice. I'm a milk-man, so I steamed some milk and added that and Im delighted to report it was a decent cappuccino with some sweetness and body to it. Not hollow, under extracted or sour like all the ones before.

So, this machine can produce something decent with the right setup it seems. I'm just wondering how I progress from here (regrinding pre ground supermarket coffee)!

Hyperbollix

Update

Have tried Lavazza crema e gusto ground coffee in the machine and glad to report I'm getting very nice shots from it now. Have stuck with the pressurized basket as I don't believe you can get a decent result from pre ground coffee in the non pressurized one...

Im doing 14g in 32g out in 25 seconds and the result is good, only a very slight acidity which seems ok for making cappuccino.

Delighted I'll be able to keep this machine as I really thought there wasn't a hope of it being useable unless it was combined with a grinder.

This will suffice for now and will look into a good grinder in the coming months.