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Short barrelled shotgun (Beneli m4)

  • 18-10-2021 4:29pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 25


    Okay so as far as I’m aware a unrestricted shotgun has a barrel length of 24” although I know that a long gun must have a barrel length of 30cm or 12” I believe this means under a restricted license it is possible to have a shotgun or rifile length of as little as 12” whilst I personally don’t want a 12” barrel I would like something from 16-18 inches as I’m looking at a beneli m4 witch I can’t find in 24 or 28 inches the m4 is also restricted anyway due to the pistol grip so I’m thinking can I use the lighter weight as a reason to get a license for a sbs or is there any other “good reasons” to get one approved

    Post edited by Cass on


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,923 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    You can also get a normal stock for the M4 as well, so that's not a major deal-breaker.

    Benelli is weird in their barrel lengths. It's either field 28 ins or ultra-short [for Uk/Irl] 18ins. Plus, they are goddammed expensive replacement spare barrels too like E700/900 +. [Thats more than I paid for my M3 10 years ago] As they are now owned by Bretta who has customer service on par with HK[We fuckin hate dealing with you peasants, once we have your cash!😠] You might try getting a personal audience with the pope and have a better chance of a reply than from Bretta.

    Take up target shotgun as your good reason, although unless you modify the M4 with the bigger mag tube to bring up the capacity[another expensive bit] you are going to be short of rounds in the competitions. Any which way you cut it, it's going to be a restricted shotgun so you can add on mag capacity and a folding stock if you want. But lightness is not a route I'd go, as all he has to tell you is get a lighter normal shotgun like a 20 GA if he is on the ball.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,829 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I believe this means under a restricted license it is possible to have a shotgun or rifile length of as little as 12” 

    Not quite. Just because something is a restricted firearm, doesn't mean it's possible to license it on a restricted license.

    An M16 is a restricted firearm. grenade launcher is a restricted firearm etc. I think you would have much more chance of success with a 18" barrel than 12"



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,923 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    An M16 is a restricted firearm. grenade launcher is a restricted firearm etc. I think you would have much more chance of success with a 18" barrel than 12"

    Nope, prohibited under both EU and Irish legislation due to one being select-fire, and the other an explosive munition and projector so the length is moot. The restricted category came partly about also because there were such animals out there already in Ireland and were licensed. IE the RIC Winchester 1897 shotguns with 16 in barrels.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,829 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Where did I say they weren't prohibited? Those are different laws.

    Maybe check the restricted SI again, clearly you forgotten how little sense it makes.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,352 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said "An M16 is a restricted firearm", which it is not, because an M16 is select fire(semi & auto/3rd burst depending on variant), therefore it is not a restricted firearm, but instead a prohib firearm.

    We tend to only deal in non restricted & restricted here since prohib licences are generally only for certain businesses dealing with such, but there are in fact 3 categories of firearms in Irish law, non restricted, restricted and prohibited, with the latter not meaning actually prohibited, but instead the next level of licencing above restricted.


    So stating that an M16 is restricted is in fact saying they are not prohibited, since a firearm cannot fall into more than one category.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,923 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    If it is prohibited under both EU and national law, isn't it a safe assumption that it cant be registered as restricted?Just because?

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,829 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I think you need to go back and re-read what I wrote. Because you've clearly misread it. The above literally proves my point.

    To recap for you. OP said;

    I believe this means under a restricted license it is possible to have a shotgun or rifile length of as little as 12”

    Op can be forgiven for that fair assumption, but its incorrect. as I pointed out, just because something is a restricted firearm does not mean it can in fact be licensed as a restricted firearm. I used a grenade launcher as an extreme example to make this point obvious. I'm a bit baffled that you reply "nope" as I know you've read the restricted SI.

    • A grenade launcher is a restricted firearm. Explicitly.
    • A grenade launcher cannot be licensed, for obvious reasons.

    I was unsure which part of that you were disagreeing with or not following. Hopefully that's clear.



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,829 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    You are correct that it is prohibited - I haven't claimed it was not btw. In fact that prohibition was key to my point.

    Where you fall down is thinking if a firearm is prohibited, is therefore not a restricted firearm. Again, you would be completely forgiven for thinking that, as that would make perfect sense - but the law does not state that.

    We tend to only deal in non restricted & restricted here since prohib licences are generally only for certain businesses dealing with such, but there are in fact 3 categories of firearms in Irish law, non restricted, restricted and prohibited, with the latter not meaning actually prohibited, but instead the next level of licencing above restricted.

    As above you are incorrect in assuming that the categories are mutually exclusive. The 3 categories come about from different areas of the law, due to this they are not exclusive and there is actually massive overlap between them. Strictly speaking there are more the 3 categories. At least 6.

    Prohibitive weapons are listed in the 1925. (it doesn't cover select fire or full auto firearms btw).

    Further to that, irish laws referred EU directives that cover category A, B, and C firearms.

    The restricted firearms SI doesn't refer to prohibited weapons, nor cate A,B,C. It actually defines everything into either restricted or not restricted.

    So stating that an M16 is restricted is in fact saying they are not prohibited, since a firearm cannot fall into more than one category.

    You would think so, but that's a nope. Have you checked the SI? It's crystal clear.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,923 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45



    I believe this means under a restricted license it is possible to have a shotgun or rifile length of as little as 12”

    Op can be forgiven for that fair assumption, but its incorrect. as I pointed out, just because something is a restricted firearm does not mean it can in fact be licensed as a restricted firearm.

    You just contradicted yourself in the above statement. Which is incorrect too. As there are long firearms licensed as restricted that are under the 24in barrel length here in Ireland and EU wide too.

     I'm a bit baffled that you reply "nope" as I know you've read the restricted SI.

    Yup as have you no doubt, and the EU directive* on this ;

    Category A

    – Prohibited firearms1. Explosive military missiles and launchers.

    2. Automatic firearms.

    3. Firearms disguised as other objects.

    4. Ammunition with penetrating, explosive or incendiary projectiles, and the projectiles for such ammunition.

    5. Pistol and revolver ammunition with expanding projectiles and the projectiles for such ammunition, except in the case of weapons for hunting or for target shooting, for persons entitled to use them.In general, the firearms are prohibited, authorisation to acquire and possession may be possible only in special cases.[19]

    [*this is the old category EU directive. The new one is the same bar adding in converted former military weapons and mag capacity, which is moot here.]

    IOW you are not going to be even able to acquire such legally, to even debate whether you license them as restricted here or no, so it's an utterly academic and fruitless debate.As we [IRL] signed up in great haste to both directives, it certainly will be used to crush any application, even though the Irish firearms laws as you correctly mooted don't specifically ban or prohibit full auto firearms here.

    Now, I'm sure there are "exceptions" to all this if you are an SS man guarding the senile old twit when he comes over to slobber all over some teen girls on his next official US presidential visit to Ireland. But for mere mortals like us,I don't think I'll be putting in for an M4/M203 anytime soon.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,829 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    You just contradicted yourself in the above statement. Which is incorrect too. As there are long firearms licensed as restricted that are under the 24in barrel length here in Ireland and EU wide too.

    I've no idea how you think I contradicted myself. And I'm also not sure why you think a long firearms <24" licensed as restricted has any relevance to my actual point. Did you mix up my post with the OP?

    Yup as have you no doubt, and the EU directive* on this ;

    Category A

    – Prohibited firearms1. Explosive military missiles and launchers.

    2. Automatic firearms.

    Right, as I said;

    Further to that, irish laws referred EU directives that cover category A, B, and C firearms.

    A grenade launcher cannot be licensed, for obvious reasons.


    IOW you are not going to be even able to acquire such legally, to even debate whether you license them as restricted here or no, so it's an utterly academic and fruitless debate

    You can't license one, that's the point. Though they are technically listed as restricted.

    IOW proving that just because a firearm is restricted, does not imply it can be licensed on a restricted license. As I said.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,923 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    You can't license one, that's the point. Though they are technically listed as restricted.

    How do you get to this conclusion that they are restricted in the 1st place? When it clearly states in the EU law which over rides our national legislation in this case,that they are an illegal/prohibited item? So ergo, debating whether they are restricted is about as much point as arguing how many angles can dance on a pinhead.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,829 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Becauae the relevant legislation literaly says they are restricted. it’s not a conclusion, it’s a fact. check the SI.

    The entire point was that you can’t take the restricted SI as a list of what can be licensed as the OP suggested.

    Really not sure which part of that is confusing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,923 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Becauae the relevant legislation literaly says they are restricted. it’s not a conclusion, it’s a fact. check the SI.

    Quote what part of the acts/SI say that exactly?

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,829 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    SI 21/2000 Section 4 and 5 (same as every other restricted firearm or ammo). Shouldn't have been hard to find, its a short document.

    The language of 4(1) means that everything is not list under (2) is restricted.

    4. (1) Firearms other than those to which subparagraph (2) relates are declared to be restricted firearms for the purposes of the Act:

    (2) This subparagraph relates to the following firearms:

    (a) single-shot or repeating short firearms...

    (b) shotguns....

    (c) the following long firearms...

    (i) single-shot or repeating rifled centre-fire...

    (ii) single-shot, repeating or semi-automatic rim-fire...

    (iii) air-operated...

    (d) silencers capable...

    (e) the following short firearms...

    5. The following ammunition is declared to be restricted ammunition for the purposes of the Act:

    (a) ammunition with penetrating, explosive or incendiary projectiles and projectiles for such ammunition;

    (b) slug ammunition for shotguns;

    (c) accelerator or sabot ammunition;

    (d) grenades, bombs and other similar missiles, whether capable or not capable of being used with a firearm, including explosive military missiles and launchers;

    A select fire or full auto like an M16 does not meet the requirements of paragraph 2(c)i for centrefire rifles. Therefore it is legally a restricted firearm. (and also a prohibited firearm under other laws). It's pretty simple. I'm really surprised you were not aware of the above.

    Being in the restricted category, does not mean licensable in theory - of course many are as we all know



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,923 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    A select fire or full auto like an M16 does not meet the requirements of paragraph 2(c)i for centrefire rifles. Therefore it is legally a restricted firearm. (and also a prohibited firearm under other laws). It's pretty simple. I'm really surprised you were not aware of the above.


    The fact it is made moot by the EU directive makes this an academic discussion as to whether it is in the restricted category or not.

    Being in the restricted category, does not mean licensable in theory - of course many are as we all know

    They are,so long as they are not EU CAT A weapons,being full auto,war weapons&munitions,or having a greater mag capacity than 10 shots[rifle] or 20 shots [pistol] Or over a OAL of 50 cms...Left up to the states then if they want to add or leave alone further restrictions,as this can all be fitted into CAT B or C.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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