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Apartment Chargers SEAI grant Talk August 5th

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,875 ✭✭✭ zg3409


    This is on this week, August 5th Thursday at 11am. You need to register in advance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,875 ✭✭✭ zg3409


    Recording of meeting us up, forms and details on website here:



    Closing date for submissions is 26th August. I recommend watching the recording before submitting anything, as it answers some questions. It's about an hour long.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭ McGiver


    This is progress. But a grant is one thing and legislation another.

    The government has to cut red tape so that property management can install chargers easily, even bring in some incentives. Secondly, the government must bring on more "red tape" and legislate for right of tenants/owners to install charger in the apartment so that the property management can't stop it and/or obstruct which is what happens now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,689 ✭✭✭ eddhorse


    I know this thread is about "apartments" but speaking of legislation for developers, new estates also being designed with communal parking rather than driveways is another issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,593 ✭✭✭✭ ted1


    Would the easiest solution be for chargers connected to a prepay meter hybrid.

    just like a public charger but for a regular fee as opposed to a premium.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭ innrain


    From what I understood during the Q&A, OMCs are charged a higher connection fee/standing rate as compared to private owners making this solution to be more expensive than even public charging.

    It is not only for apartments it is for all multi unit developments with off street parking. (private). Those with on street parking are advised to speak to LC to apply for the public charger scheme.

    It seems they favor the communal charger manage by the CPO (charger point operator) option, although from what I heard CPOs don't really want to get involved in this as it is a very low margin for high investment. For the option of connecting to your own meter they listed as a drawback the power to the apartment could halve. I really don't see how is this different from a house.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,593 ✭✭✭✭ ted1


    The utility could be mandated to charge residential rates + nominal fee to recoup costs



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005




    IIRC all new developments have to either by wired for EV charging in the parking area of have the trunking installed

    Would it not be easier to setup that a person who can't get a home charge point installed pays the same rate as their home electricity tariff on public chargers? Not on the fast chargers but destination ones. That way the when chargers are installed in MUDs everyone can access them, assuming the MUD isn't gated, and people aren't being penalised for not having a driveway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,875 ✭✭✭ zg3409


    In terms of fees, I thought I heard a question asking if the OMC could make a profit on supplying chargers to residents. If they take the route of ripping off those wanting to drive an EV uptake will be lower.


    As said the economics and logistics still don't add up. Ideally you want widespread rollout even phased with reasonable fees ideally with a load managed system with central billing system. I can't see how this will happen except in new build where wiring part may already be completed. The cost per parking space is going to be in the thousands if a billing system is needed, and no one has the appetite to fund this. I agree if someone wants an EV charger they should be heavily assisted and OMC should be forced to agree, but the sums don't work



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,593 ✭✭✭✭ ted1


    No. Public chargers are for public use, Not to be monopolised by 1 or 2 people. just keep it that a bank get installed for residents and they pay a fair fee for use, ( not for profit by the MC)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    So a person with a driveway gets a free charger while someone who doesn't have a driveway has to pay to get a charger and then pay a premium to use it, there's zero reason for a person without a driveway to buy an BEV.

    I thought they wanted to encourage people to buy EVs not discourage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,593 ✭✭✭✭ ted1


    Where did I ever say pay a premium, I always said a fair rate, and even said residential rate. Where did I ever say that they don’t get a grant for chargers. People pay a premium for a driveway.

    with feed in tariffs coming for PV. It’s easy to treat a apartment charger in the same method. Use the charge card to charge to user and remove that cost of the metered rate


    keep public chargers separate. They are meant for occasional usage by all EV users. Not for a select few. Also apartments Knick’s don’t allow or want randomers rocking up and parking cars there



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005



    If it costs more than their current domestic rate it's a premium and an OMC won't be able to offer a charging solution at domestic rates.

    For my development the whole place would have to be dug up and trunking ran everywhere for chargers. Then we'd have to pay for the cables and chargers. This will cost a lot and never get past an AGM or EGM. Every MUD will be the same.

    So how do you encourage a sizeable percentage of our population to take up BEV's is they are not getting any of the benefit of owning an BEV?



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,593 ✭✭✭✭ ted1


    It’ll cost more as a home owner has to pay about 500-700 for the install after the grant. The apartment owner doesn’t. So that’s why there would be an extra cost to recoup the costs. Someone has to pay this.


    you would not need to dig up the whole place. You’d be surprised how easy things are when there is a will. It really wouldn’t be most more than a regular domestic user if you install 10 in a row


    the cost wouldn’t have to be borne by the development, the utility could get a government loan , which is repaid as they collect revenue from the charger


    remember, that there is precedence in that the government are paying approx 10k per private dwelling to provide rural broadband



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    It'll cost a lot more than €700 to install a charger in a MUD. If done in batches the cost will go down per unit but it'll be bigger upfront cost to the OMC which won't get past an AGM/EGM

    The place will need to be dug up to bury the cables. Car parking is spread around my development and you'll need to cross several internal roads to run the cables and then the parking spaces will need to be dug up to install the chargers.

    What utility is going install chargers in MUDs? Revenue from the charger is back to paying a premium to charge at home and therefore zero reason to change to an BEV



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,593 ✭✭✭✭ ted1


    You don’t need to dig up parking spaces. To install a pole or wall mounted charger.

    you just pick the ten closest spots to the main incomers, or if it’s an underground you can run a cable along the walls or ceilings and provide a point at each parking spot


    a digger can dig a trench snd run a cable in a day. It’s not that expensive.


    where are you getting a premium from ?

    home owners pay 700 + residential rates.

    apatments dwellers should pay residential + the 700 , except the 700 is added onto the tariffs as they are not paying this up front.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,875 ✭✭✭ zg3409


    I am guessing this came out if seai apartment process, however 80% funding at 600 euro per spot won't mean any management companies will take this up?



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,593 ✭✭✭✭ ted1


    Is it not 600 for the charger + 80% of electrical cost.


    sounds like they’ll have a prepay meter is done kind of submetering so no need to connect to individual consumer units.


    perhaps with a slight markup they can recoup the 20%



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭ innrain


    As ted1 says it is about 80% of wiring costs up to the charger then each owner would qualify for the old grant of home charger. However, this is just one possible scenario discussed. The other one which is somewhat preffered by SEAI is the comunal solution.

    I think the first one is the most reliable. And I don't get the issue which people say about upgrading blocks connection. If there are 20 units each with 12kVA and the installation of 20 chargers connected to every individual units meter is such 12kVA is never tripped what is the problem?

    The communal would involve a third party company (Charge Point Operator) which adds another layer of complexity, read costs. They actually have to plug into the comunal connection which, in time may need upgraded and it is more expensive from the get go. How manny communal chargers are needed for 20-40 cars from the same block with 20 apartments? The charger which doesn't belong to anybody tends to break more often.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,875 ✭✭✭ zg3409


    So say one owner with a dedicated apartment parking space would get 600 towards charger and 80% of the cost of wiring from charger all the way to the apartment? Therefore if they decided to subsidise the 20% themselves then there would be zero cost to management company? Not exactly straight forward but better than existing no grant, no help.

    Shared systems would be complicated, and takeup initially would be low, and as you say the overall total supply would need to be upgraded in time. It does not look like a runner except in high end apartments with lots of existing EV owners. Usage fees would be relatively high for example 30c/kWh. Would each EV driver then need to apply and get a charger and grant, and presumably it would be a charger with billing and load sharing, and matching all others at the apartment? That sounds messy and slow to roll out.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭ innrain


    The OMC applies for the MUD grant through the agent. They own the wiring up to the charger. They can also include the chargers in the 80% cost if they want to and in this case the owners don't qualify for the 600 grant. The owner cannot pay individually for the 20%. However the OMC can decide the level of wiring. They can decide to wire the carpark up to 1 charger per each apartment or only to a limited number of chargers to keep the costs down. This can create another mechanism to force complicance with property management fees. Who doesn't pay gets disconnected. I know in our case is who doesn't pay does not get access to the car park.

    It is messy and really depends on the physical layout. Some would have the meters in the carpark some would not be connected and some would have on street parking. Some would be non-allocated which seems to curl even more the problem. Of course there are solutions there, like short term leasing but it requires willingness to solve it. For these reasons there is no cap on the grant and SEAI wants as many applications as possible. I magine in time this will be capped.

    From my limited experience the agents don't really care, to put it mildly, the OMC board usually listens the agent as the EV driver has vested interests. An AGM is once every year and such issues are played down. People gets discouraged and the status-quo prevails.



  • Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭ EarWig


    Except if you listened to the presentation at the start of the consultation it was said that the idea was to kickstart solutions before they were made compulsory.

    Also, I think some limited provision for EVs is required by early 2025 anyway.

    Wouldn't like to be a pathfinder on this one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,862 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    I got a grant for my apartment install 3 years ago



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭ innrain


    I must re-listen to it, I participated live at the time and maybe I have missed it. I don't think anything would be compulsory for the old builds in the near future. (maybe in 2050). What I know it is compulsory are for the new builds due to building regs.



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