Apartment Chargers SEAI grant Talk August 5th

zg3409

SEAI online meeting August 5th in relation to apartment charging and possible grants

80% of charging done on home chargers. Seai webex to discuss apartment grant proposals on Aug 5th 11am https://seai.webex.com/ec3300/eventcenter/mobile/eventInfoMobile.do?siteurl=seai&confID=200535645985185449&meetingKey=1742239858&backUrl=%2Fmw3300%2Fwireless%2Fmeetinglist.do%3Fsiteurl%3Dseai&t=a&MTID=e68310e1e99137f1e2e78601afc4e6fd1&rnd=0.9019886157195517&isIPADAsMobile=null&fromModernViewMobile=null&fbclid=IwAR1OJqLhdOAvXMJz1LJyt-RS_CT9syUAuQow0BV0UbBp2FMcIb97319jYP8

“As such, I warmly welcome the SEAI’s announcement and urge residents of apartments and shared residential blocks to engage with the SEAI to ensure that the right supports are provided to enable EV ownership for these groups.”

Overview of Proposed Scheme

It is estimated that 80% of annual EV charging is done at a driver’s home location. Therefore, widespread availability of residential charging at all locations is therefore a critical requirement in order to achieve Ireland’s 2030 electric vehicle target.

In this consultation, from 11am to 12.15pm on August 5, SEAI will outline its proposed two-tiered approach to providing grant support for EV charging solutions for apartment and Multi-Unit Dwelling (MUD) complexes.

Firstly, support will be provided to the Owner Management Companies (OMCs) to install the electrical network and any shared chargers. Secondly, each resident will be provided with support to install a charge point to connect to the local Apartment/MUD charging network.

SEAI will outline the proposal and seek views and opinions from interested stakeholders.

zg3409

This is on this week, August 5th Thursday at 11am. You need to register in advance.

zg3409

Recording of meeting us up, forms and details on website here:

https://www.seai.ie/consultations/

Closing date for submissions is 26th August. I recommend watching the recording before submitting anything, as it answers some questions. It's about an hour long.

McGiver

This is progress. But a grant is one thing and legislation another.

The government has to cut red tape so that property management can install chargers easily, even bring in some incentives. Secondly, the government must bring on more "red tape" and legislate for right of tenants/owners to install charger in the apartment so that the property management can't stop it and/or obstruct which is what happens now.

eddhorse

I know this thread is about "apartments" but speaking of legislation for developers, new estates also being designed with communal parking rather than driveways is another issue.

ted1

Would the easiest solution be for chargers connected to a prepay meter hybrid.

just like a public charger but for a regular fee as opposed to a premium.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727202#Comment_117727202

From what I understood during the Q&A, OMCs are charged a higher connection fee/standing rate as compared to private owners making this solution to be more expensive than even public charging.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117726964#Comment_117726964

It is not only for apartments it is for all multi unit developments with off street parking. (private). Those with on street parking are advised to speak to LC to apply for the public charger scheme.

It seems they favor the communal charger manage by the CPO (charger point operator) option, although from what I heard CPOs don't really want to get involved in this as it is a very low margin for high investment. For the option of connecting to your own meter they listed as a drawback the power to the apartment could halve. I really don't see how is this different from a house.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727963#Comment_117727963

The utility could be mandated to charge residential rates + nominal fee to recoup costs

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117726964#Comment_117726964

IIRC all new developments have to either by wired for EV charging in the parking area of have the trunking installed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727202#Comment_117727202

Would it not be easier to setup that a person who can't get a home charge point installed pays the same rate as their home electricity tariff on public chargers? Not on the fast chargers but destination ones. That way the when chargers are installed in MUDs everyone can access them, assuming the MUD isn't gated, and people aren't being penalised for not having a driveway.

zg3409

In terms of fees, I thought I heard a question asking if the OMC could make a profit on supplying chargers to residents. If they take the route of ripping off those wanting to drive an EV uptake will be lower.

As said the economics and logistics still don't add up. Ideally you want widespread rollout even phased with reasonable fees ideally with a load managed system with central billing system. I can't see how this will happen except in new build where wiring part may already be completed. The cost per parking space is going to be in the thousands if a billing system is needed, and no one has the appetite to fund this. I agree if someone wants an EV charger they should be heavily assisted and OMC should be forced to agree, but the sums don't work

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117731404#Comment_117731404

No. Public chargers are for public use, Not to be monopolised by 1 or 2 people. just keep it that a bank get installed for residents and they pay a fair fee for use, ( not for profit by the MC)

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117731983#Comment_117731983

So a person with a driveway gets a free charger while someone who doesn't have a driveway has to pay to get a charger and then pay a premium to use it, there's zero reason for a person without a driveway to buy an BEV.

I thought they wanted to encourage people to buy EVs not discourage.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117735299#Comment_117735299

Where did I ever say pay a premium, I always said a fair rate, and even said residential rate. Where did I ever say that they don’t get a grant for chargers. People pay a premium for a driveway.

with feed in tariffs coming for PV. It’s easy to treat a apartment charger in the same method. Use the charge card to charge to user and remove that cost of the metered rate

keep public chargers separate. They are meant for occasional usage by all EV users. Not for a select few. Also apartments Knick’s don’t allow or want randomers rocking up and parking cars there

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117735354#Comment_117735354

If it costs more than their current domestic rate it's a premium and an OMC won't be able to offer a charging solution at domestic rates.

For my development the whole place would have to be dug up and trunking ran everywhere for chargers. Then we'd have to pay for the cables and chargers. This will cost a lot and never get past an AGM or EGM. Every MUD will be the same.

So how do you encourage a sizeable percentage of our population to take up BEV's is they are not getting any of the benefit of owning an BEV?

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117735470#Comment_117735470

It’ll cost more as a home owner has to pay about 500-700 for the install after the grant. The apartment owner doesn’t. So that’s why there would be an extra cost to recoup the costs. Someone has to pay this.

you would not need to dig up the whole place. You’d be surprised how easy things are when there is a will. It really wouldn’t be most more than a regular domestic user if you install 10 in a row

the cost wouldn’t have to be borne by the development, the utility could get a government loan , which is repaid as they collect revenue from the charger

remember, that there is precedence in that the government are paying approx 10k per private dwelling to provide rural broadband

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117735593#Comment_117735593

It'll cost a lot more than €700 to install a charger in a MUD. If done in batches the cost will go down per unit but it'll be bigger upfront cost to the OMC which won't get past an AGM/EGM

The place will need to be dug up to bury the cables. Car parking is spread around my development and you'll need to cross several internal roads to run the cables and then the parking spaces will need to be dug up to install the chargers.

What utility is going install chargers in MUDs? Revenue from the charger is back to paying a premium to charge at home and therefore zero reason to change to an BEV

ted1

You don’t need to dig up parking spaces. To install a pole or wall mounted charger.

you just pick the ten closest spots to the main incomers, or if it’s an underground you can run a cable along the walls or ceilings and provide a point at each parking spot

a digger can dig a trench snd run a cable in a day. It’s not that expensive.

where are you getting a premium from ?

home owners pay 700 + residential rates.

apatments dwellers should pay residential + the 700 , except the 700 is added onto the tariffs as they are not paying this up front.

zg3409

I am guessing this came out if seai apartment process, however 80% funding at 600 euro per spot won't mean any management companies will take this up?

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118309290#Comment_118309290

Is it not 600 for the charger + 80% of electrical cost.

sounds like they’ll have a prepay meter is done kind of submetering so no need to connect to individual consumer units.

perhaps with a slight markup they can recoup the 20%

innrain

As ted1 says it is about 80% of wiring costs up to the charger then each owner would qualify for the old grant of home charger. However, this is just one possible scenario discussed. The other one which is somewhat preffered by SEAI is the comunal solution.

I think the first one is the most reliable. And I don't get the issue which people say about upgrading blocks connection. If there are 20 units each with 12kVA and the installation of 20 chargers connected to every individual units meter is such 12kVA is never tripped what is the problem?

The communal would involve a third party company (Charge Point Operator) which adds another layer of complexity, read costs. They actually have to plug into the comunal connection which, in time may need upgraded and it is more expensive from the get go. How manny communal chargers are needed for 20-40 cars from the same block with 20 apartments? The charger which doesn't belong to anybody tends to break more often.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118311743#Comment_118311743

So say one owner with a dedicated apartment parking space would get 600 towards charger and 80% of the cost of wiring from charger all the way to the apartment? Therefore if they decided to subsidise the 20% themselves then there would be zero cost to management company? Not exactly straight forward but better than existing no grant, no help.

Shared systems would be complicated, and takeup initially would be low, and as you say the overall total supply would need to be upgraded in time. It does not look like a runner except in high end apartments with lots of existing EV owners. Usage fees would be relatively high for example 30c/kWh. Would each EV driver then need to apply and get a charger and grant, and presumably it would be a charger with billing and load sharing, and matching all others at the apartment? That sounds messy and slow to roll out.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313674#Comment_118313674

The OMC applies for the MUD grant through the agent. They own the wiring up to the charger. They can also include the chargers in the 80% cost if they want to and in this case the owners don't qualify for the 600 grant. The owner cannot pay individually for the 20%. However the OMC can decide the level of wiring. They can decide to wire the carpark up to 1 charger per each apartment or only to a limited number of chargers to keep the costs down. This can create another mechanism to force complicance with property management fees. Who doesn't pay gets disconnected. I know in our case is who doesn't pay does not get access to the car park.

It is messy and really depends on the physical layout. Some would have the meters in the carpark some would not be connected and some would have on street parking. Some would be non-allocated which seems to curl even more the problem. Of course there are solutions there, like short term leasing but it requires willingness to solve it. For these reasons there is no cap on the grant and SEAI wants as many applications as possible. I magine in time this will be capped.

From my limited experience the agents don't really care, to put it mildly, the OMC board usually listens the agent as the EV driver has vested interests. An AGM is once every year and such issues are played down. People gets discouraged and the status-quo prevails.

EarWig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313840#Comment_118313840

Except if you listened to the presentation at the start of the consultation it was said that the idea was to kickstart solutions before they were made compulsory.

Also, I think some limited provision for EVs is required by early 2025 anyway.

Wouldn't like to be a pathfinder on this one.

ELM327

I got a grant for my apartment install 3 years ago

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314018#Comment_118314018

I must re-listen to it, I participated live at the time and maybe I have missed it. I don't think anything would be compulsory for the old builds in the near future. (maybe in 2050). What I know it is compulsory are for the new builds due to building regs.

cannco253

dragging up an old thread as just saw this article

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/138846/ocean-towers-apartments-lead-the-way-in-sustainability

"Ocean Towers Apartments were one of the first apartment complexes in Ireland to successfully avail of this SEAI Apartment EV grant scheme"

Is there any visibility on the actual take up of this scheme anywhere?

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405360#Comment_121405360

I would hate to see the costs of this. A new esb meter with standing charges, only 2 spaces for cars to charge with an upgrade needed to charge 4 cars. Probably 4 times the cost of basic wall mounted 7kW units. At least the residents have an option, but might be cheaper to run diesel than EV.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408912#Comment_121408912

I've seen a quote for a similar installation from them and it wasn't pretty. You're quite far in your estimate. Missing some digits in your multiplier

Firblog

So what

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121410656#Comment_121410656

So how much was the quote per charge point?

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121417309#Comment_121417309

The cost of the charger points was the least bit in the whole quote. With installation running on existing cable trays with existing holes for routing the cables and distances measured in meters the total cost was in 6 digits ex-VAT. The solution they provide is unsuitable for a residential complex. They sell 2x(2x22W) and tell those who don't know that it provides the best value as the cars will charge faster and will have a great turnaround. In reality who plugs the car at 8pm will not be bothered to move the car at 3am to make space for the neighbour. More suitable would be a higher number of single phase chargers with load balancing. Also I doubt the landlord supply of medium sized complexes have 90kVA spare. That is a cost which they don't mention. The solution provided is not scalable and in 5 years time will be insufficient. The SEAI grant fundamentally missed the point of scale by forcing all aplicants to use the landlord supply and not allow individual connections where possible.

Firblog

Yeah, I really think that for alot of estates the CPO route makes absolutely no sense.

In our estate we have terraces with 3 bed houses above 2 bed apartments, a footpath runs along in front of them then every unit has their dedicated parking spot. CPO solution would mean that 2 or 4 units would lose their parking spot, those using the chargers would be paying substantially more than residential night rates to charge, it would be much less convenient (getting up at 3am to charge when/if neighbour disconnects), and as said above less scalable in the future.