Question about basic puppy training

xboxdad

Can someone please explain how will the puppy stop expecting treats that we use to train them and still continue to perform the desired actions in response to commands?

After watching many training videos I now have a basic understanding of the clicker method and the "yes" / "good" based variation of the same.

Both methods use small treats to get the dog understand good things happen when they perform a certain thing in response to a certain command.

I just don't see how will the dog stop expecting the treat and still do the action.

Will they not get disillusioned once they realize their compliance does not result in getting treats anymore?

Thank you for any advise.

Stanford

Begin to replace the treats with making a fuss of the pup and the pup will eventually forget the treats, all dogs want their owners to pay attention and praise them so phase out the treats and the pup will respond.

xboxdad

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117620548#Comment_117620548

Thank you, that makes sense!

How about cases when you're not near them as the goal of the command is to stop running further away. (e.g. running towards another dog or child and you want them "down" or "stop")

How can you praise them effectively enough in that case without touching them?

Also, do you ever phase out the excessive praising too or you absolutely need to do that every time to keep the commands effective?

tk123

Would you work day after day without being paid? 😉

My pup is a baby so he's getting lots of treats and praise for the time being.. in time i'll vary when he gets a treat and will give praise or a toy the other times...but he'll always get something for doing what I ask. My big boy is 12 and I'd always give some treats/praise on our walks for various things (he's not into toys).

You're treating/praising to build a bond with your dog so that in an emergency situation eg I can tell my dog to stop/wait/whatever and he'll do it as he knows something good will happen in return.

volchitsa

I've read that it works because dogs are inveterate gamblers, so that once they've learned something (a skill or a command etc) they will keep on doing it even when the reward is only occasional.

Apparently a reward that happens about 2 or 3 times out of ten works better than being rewarded much more often, presumably because it's like gamblers winning a big prize occasionally rather than a small prize often. The difference being that the dog has little idea of absolute value: the reward is "big" to him because it's infrequent.

volchitsa

I see we can't edit. I wanted to add that the answer to the OP is that the dog does still hope for a reward, but when it dpesn't come, it thinks "Oh well, next time then", and is even keener the next time.

daheff

The way to do it is to have a reward command.

See lots of trainers use "Yes" or "Good Dog" or a clicker.

So for example to get a dog to sit

You say Sit

Dog Sits

You say yes/good dog/click

Dog gets treat.

Over time the dog learns treat comes from the reward command.

Reward command comes from doing as told

Once dog is reliably doing as told, the treat happens every other time...then one in 3 then randomly.

Dog will keep wanting to do as told as will keep hoping to get a reward

xboxdad

Very interesting info, thanks all!

VonVix

One of the hardest things I have found for a lot of clients is trying to get them to switch to variable reinforcement (where people go from giving treats every single time, to randomly), one of the important things is recognizing when your dog is ready to do this. You want to have a good consistent rate of success when delivering a cue before you start to reduce/randomize the rewards offered. For example, if your dog only sits for 50% of the time when asked, you and your dog are not ready to switch to a variable rate of reinforcement.

Remember rewards also come in other forms other than just treats or praise. Access (being allowed on cue to enter a space they want to go to) and toys, too. There are so many things in a dog's life that are reinforcing, we can use these in every day life to encourage the good behaviour we want.

xboxdad

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626676#Comment_117626676

That's some very good practical info, thank you. I'll remember to 1st achieve solid performance while still giving rewards every time.

Rewarding via access to a desirable area sounds a little tricky/indirect, I'll need to educate myself on this.

VonVix

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117630862#Comment_117630862

I'm not sure what stage of your training with your puppy you are at, so I don't know if you are past the point of using hand signals and you're on to verbal cues, but I'll assume you're at the stage where you're trying to pair a word with a behaviour.

Don't expect any dog to do something on cue 100% of the time even when they have learnt a behaviour, it's completely normal for them to get distracted occasionally. A good 90% is excellent, just make sure you're not in the habit of saying "sit sit sit", you should only have to say the cue word once, if dog does not respond as they look at you, it means they don't have a full grasp of what the word means yet. If you repeat the word too many times, some dogs learn that the cue word is actually "sitsitsit" and not "sit"

What I mean about a dog getting rewarded for access... for example when you're about to leave the house to go on a walk, asking your dog to sit just before you leave together, opening the front door slowly as the dog remains in a sit position, if they stand up, door close. I never say "no" or "ah ah" in these situations if they make a mistake, as the door closing should be indication enough, I wait for the dog to figure it out themselves that their body position controls the outcome, I find they learn faster that way. I feel like I'll sooner confuse/distract them if I start adding my own noises to the situation. They learn that to go outside for their walk, they must follow the cue to get what they want. In turn, they get rewarded for sitting and waiting (with no treat) by getting to go out for a walk. I practice this at traffic lights (sit and wait) as well. It can be handy if you have a dog who is prone to barging ahead.

I'm not a huge fan of teaching "sit" I'm just using that as an example cue, but that's a whole other story, I can understand why some folk use it lol.

xboxdad

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117630947#Comment_117630947

Thank you, your explanation makes it very straightforward!

I'm considering getting a Border Collie puppy and I educate myself as much as possible in advance. I saw many Border Collie puppy training videos already and my priority is to retain control over the dog's behavior in public spaces, off leash. My other priority is to make our lives together workable and enjoyable for all parties :)

BTW, I don't remember seeing hand signals used in any of the material I studied so far. It was either a clicker or good/yes from the very start.

VonVix

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117631075#Comment_117631075

If you've never had a dog before and are considering training, getting a Border Collie is kinda throwing yourself into the deep end! It's like learning to drive and deciding you're gonna start in a Ferrari. By all means go for it, but sometimes these videos we see of well trained BCs give us an unrealistic idea of what these dogs can be like to live with when we're not working/training with them. Also another big part is where are you deciding to get a puppy from. Bad breeding/poor early socialisation (1-8 weeks, before you even have the puppy) can be critical for this breed in determining if they are going to be a "success" as an adult. We have so many Collie-types in rescues in this country for multiple reasons. @susangarrettdogsthat on Instagram is really good for showing clips of what it's like living with BCs.

So when you're teaching a dog sit (for example), we have the bad habit as humans to use our words and to expect dogs to understand English and make a quick connection as to what the words mean. So for teaching sit you start with luring, then you move onto a hand signal and then you pair your hand signal with the cue word, then you fade out your hand signal so you just use a verbal cue. Where are you getting your information from, out of interest?

xboxdad

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117631840#Comment_117631840

Thank you. Yes, after all this research I did I can see this is a risky step, even if I give it all the chance/effort for it to work out. I'm still in the decision making phase, but the whole family is very much in love with the breed, so it's hard to let it go.

I'm getting my information from YouTube, I consume all videos/video series that focus on taking a BC puppy home the 1st time, how to prepare the environment and how to prepare yourself / what to do in the 1st day / 1st week, etc... I find it very interesting and I'm still hoping we could follow it through and make it a success for both the dog and ourselves. I can't say for sure of course as I'm not experienced in this field.

I'm planning to get the puppy a formal training too, but the pandemic seem to have had an effect on training classes too. Some paused/discontinued, some booked out for the foreseeable future.

I also don't want to risk having an ineffective training with an instructor just because I was so unprepared that I didn't recognize he's not doing a great job. ...as great recommendations on the internet don't always translate to success when I hire the same contractor just in any field. I should be fully capable of doing the job myself therefore and the instructor should just streamline it for me with their experience. Once the puppy isn't a puppy anymore, there won't be a 2nd chance I reckon, so can't just sit back and let a random instructor bring me success I feel.

BTW, about breeders: Yes, so by visiting two of them, I figure there are two entirely different type of ppl who breed BCs for two entirely different reasons. One is the sheepdog ppl who breed for herding ability and the ones I visited didn't look like breeders at all TBH. These two just let the puppies live on their farm, couldn't clearly describe what they eat, but were very proud of the father/grandfather of the pups as award winning sheepdogs, etc... I'm now convinced I need the other type of breeder, breeding for shows/appearance - as they are the ppl apparently who do everything by the rules, registered with the IKC and adhering to the set of morals/rules set out by the IKC.

fits

Eh not necessarily.

I recently got a pup from a man who'd had an accidental litter. Collie spaniel x. The pups were all well-socialised, vaccinated, wormed and microchipped. He was far from an IKC breeder - he keeps spaniels as gun dogs. But I couldnt be happier with how they were reared, socialised, and the pup is fantastic at home.

Sometimes I think dogs bred for a job are healthier. While my pup wasn't obviously, his mum is a fantastic gundog and dad a good sheepdog. He's very trainable and easy to live with so far at least.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117635957#Comment_117635957

Yes this has been our experience too: our dog is a mixed breed sheep dog, an accidental litter on a small hobby farm where both parents were working dogs, and she's fantastic. The advantage was that we saw both parents and could see their characters, and while I found the dogs' living conditions a bit tough (they slept in a shed with their mother, while the father slept in a different shed, they obviously spent enough time with the family to be well socialised.

I'd say the main disadvantage of working dogs is likely to be that they want to work (unsurprisingly!) ie that they can't just go for a couple of walks and then stay quietly in the back garden: you need to spend real time with them. But if you have older children who are keen to do things like teach them tricks or do agility with them, a working dog is ideal.