When does a reasonable excuse for travel abroad become an abuse of the system?

54and56

If I'm reading the essential travel legislation correctly (https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/travel_abroad/travelling_abroad_during_covid.html) "to go to a funeral" is one of the permitted reasonable excuses.

I don't see anything in the legislation setting any criteria or qualifying "to go to a funeral" in any way e.g. that the deceased must be related to you or that the funeral you go to must be within X days of departure from Ireland or within Y days before returning to Ireland.

What's stopping people flying to XXX popping along to some randomers funeral service for a minute the day of their arrival in XXX and then staying on for two weeks by the beach?

If asked by a Guard why you, your partner and your 3 young kids are traveling to sunny XXX for 2 weeks and you say you're going to a funeral can the Guard fine you if he/she doesn't believe you?

Can the Guard require you to state the name of the person who's funeral you are going to, what your relationship with them is, when the funeral is being held etc?

Before anyone jumps to the wrong conclusion I'm not booked or planning to fly anywhere, I'm curious to understand exactly what the current law is in relation to reasonable excuses for travel abroad. I've been discussing the matter on here and amongst friends and family over the last few days and no one seems to know definitively.

The most interesting debate I've had is defining where "going to a funeral" stops being about going to a funeral and becomes something else.

Most people accept if you fly to Barcelona on a Monday to go to a funeral Tuesday afternoon and come home Wednesday you're clearly "going to a funeral" but what if having gone to the funeral you decide to stay for a few nights to enjoy the city, eat out and maybe go to a football match before coming home on Friday, is that still "going to a funeral" under the law or is it in fact a city break that happens to include "going to a funeral"?

What happens if having attended the funeral you decide to get the train to Marbella and have a 2 week holiday before flying home? For the purposes of the essential travel legislation are you still going to a funeral because you attend a funeral before starting your 2 week holiday or are you in fact just having a holiday and can therefore be fined €2,000?

Where, if anywhere, is the line drawn / defined in actual law?

athlone573

To be pedantic AGS don't issue fines they issue fixed penalty notices, courts impose fines upon conviction

Its open to you to contest a FPN on the basis that you were going to a funeral (or dentist appointment) . Presumably the judge will ask whose funeral and when you booked the tickets. If before the death then it will look sus. And the solicitor fees may be more than the fine.

Not sure how much leeway the court has to determine that your intentions weren't genuine, quite a lot I would suspect.

athlone573

I suppose on a practical level the sunny countries that can be flown to these days are mostly Catholic where funerals are public and a few days after death. The protestant countries that I know of have a few weeks delay but funerals are very private.

All moot after the 19th of July apparently.

17togo

athlone573 wrote: »

To be pedantic AGS don't issue fines they issue fixed penalty notices, courts impose fines upon conviction

Incorrect, you are issued a fixed penalty notice which is a set fine. If you pay it, end of, if you don't then you get summonsed to court and before a judge.

athlone573

17togo wrote: »

Incorrect, you are issued a fixed penalty notice which is a set fine. If you pay it, end of, if you don't then you get summonsed to court and before a judge.

Is that not what I said?

17togo

athlone573 wrote: »

Is that not what I said?

No, you said guards don't issue fines, the courts does.

JustAThought

Maybe if it was your funeral or a member of your close families funeral you might feel different. Do you think emotions would be high enough at a strangers funeral in Italy or Spain to lynch a gaggle of tourists who turn up in flipflops and sarongs with blow up alligator en route to the beach who want their visa form stamped or trying to take selfies with the coffin for immigration.

Del2005

JustAThought wrote: »

Maybe if it was your funeral or a member of your close families funeral you might feel different. Do you think emotions would be high enough at a strangers funeral in Italy or Spain to lynch a gaggle of tourists who turn up in flipflops and sarongs with blow up alligator en route to the beach who want their visa form stamped or trying to take selfies with the coffin for immigration.

You could always skip the funeral and go straight the the restaurant. that's what people do for communions and confirmations.

athlone573

17togo wrote: »

No, you said guards don't issue fines, the courts does.

I feel disrespectful to dead strangers arguing here, but the notices guards hand to you aren't fines, they're penalty notices...

17togo

athlone573 wrote: »

I feel disrespectful to dead strangers arguing here, but the notices guards hand to you aren't fines, they're penalty notices...

I also give my condolences to fictional dead strangers...... But..

What is the penalty notices notifying you to do?

54and56

athlone573 wrote: »

To be pedantic AGS don't issue fines they issue fixed penalty notices, courts impose fines upon conviction

Its open to you to contest a FPN on the basis that you were going to a funeral (or dentist appointment) . Presumably the judge will ask whose funeral and when you booked the tickets. If before the death then it will look sus. And the solicitor fees may be more than the fine.

Not sure how much leeway the court has to determine that your intentions weren't genuine, quite a lot I would suspect.

This is the nub of my question. The law (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2021/si/217/made/en/pdf) as I've read it makes no reference to there being any requirement for any specific family or other type of connection between the deceased and those going to the funeral or that the booking has to have been made after the person died.

Maybe a judge can make up and impose criteria not contained in the actual legislation drafted by Govt but as the legislation is written it seems to me if you intend to go to a funeral at your destination you've met the reasonable excuse test.

I'm sure if the Govt wanted certain criteria met such as the deceased having to be a close relative or your journey can only be booked after the person has been pronounced dead they'd have included same in the legislation.

athlone573

54and56 wrote: »

This is the nub of my question. The law (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2021/si/217/made/en/pdf) as I've read it makes no reference to there being any requirement for any specific family or other type of connection between the deceased and those going to the funeral or that the booking has to have been made after the person died.

Maybe a judge can make up and impose criteria not contained in the actual legislation drafted by Govt but as the legislation is written it seems to me if you intend to go to a funeral at your destination you've met the reasonable excuse test.

I'm sure if the Govt wanted certain criteria met such as the deceased having to be a close relative or your journey can only be booked after the person has been pronounced dead they'd have included same in the legislation.

As these regulations were drafted in a rush, how I would see it working if you tried that excuse (for a complete stranger),

Garda thinks you're taking the pee and hands you a "fine notice",

You get your day in court where the District Judge agrees with the Garda,

You lawyer up (not cheap) and appeal,

You may or may not win on the technical point of whether your purpose was "attending a funeral"...

But honestly I don't have the insight to know how it would go. There was a test case on the constitutionality of the travel restrictions recently, I don't think the verdict is out yet but might be interesting?

faceman

I’m not a legal person but I can share a real story relevant to your question. One of my Irish neighbours here in Spain passed away suddenly 6 weeks ago. She lived alone and 3 of her family came over the funeral and finalising the affairs. They stayed for a few weeks. There were days they were busy and there were days they sat by the pool. They certainly weren’t going around like they were having a jolly either way.

Incidentally they had no hassle from the Gardai in the airport.

For some, perhaps a funeral is an in-out job but for others it’s much longer.

54and56

athlone573 wrote: »

You get your day in court where the District Judge agrees with the Garda,

You lawyer up (not cheap) and appeal

Commercially I don't think it would make sense to lawyer up and appeal for the sake of a €2,000 fine if having asserted you had attended Mr/Mrs Miguel's funeral shortly after arrival in Benidorm at 15:00 in XXX Church (supported by Spanish version of RIP.ie details) the judge somehow without any evidence determined you hadn't in fact attended the funeral and/or your attendance at said funeral didn't meet the "go to a funeral" criteria but it could be an interesting opportunity to scrutinise how the judge made his or her determination given the law doesn't set any qualifying criteria for the "go to a funeral" reasonable excuse to travel.

Perhaps the Govt defence (indicated in your reply) would be "we were in a rush so didn't think it through fully" and we now need the courts to back fill the bits we missed

athlone573

Yes somehow I feel there won't be case law on intent and when it was formed like with drink driving laws as lockdown is nearly over, touch wood.

Victor

An important consideration might be if funerals are being held in that country and who can attend.

54and56

Victor wrote: »

An important consideration might be if funerals are being held in that country and who can attend.

Yes I can see that possibility all right which is why I'm surprised at the very broad and loose language used in the legislation.

Given a clean slate the Govt chose to define the reasonable excuse as simply "going" to a funeral instead of attending a funeral. Perhaps it's to allow for the fact that you can travel with the intent of going to a funeral but when you get there numbers are limited by local legislation to eg 15 attendees and there are already 15 people in the church / crematorium ahead of you so you find yourself prevented from actually attending, something you couldn't have known with certainty in advance.

Also, how exactly is "going to a funeral" defined in law? Does it mean attending some sort of pre burial/cremation type religious service? Does it mean attending the family home to sympathise with the deceased family members and loved ones? Does it mean attending the wake and/or the post burial gathering of family and friends to remember the deceased?

Depending on the religion involved or lack thereof a funeral could occur over an extended period of time eg if I wanted to to go the funeral of King Bhumibol the Great of Thailand who died in Oct 2016 I had a window of 12 months to do so as his body lay in state prior to being cremated.

I find it strange that the Govt chose to define the excuse "to go to a funeral" so broadly when they could do easily have narrowed the definition to something like "to attend the burial or cremation service of a close family member or friend" thus erecting some sort of qualifying criteria.

I know the legislation was rushed but if I can cack handidly find some words in the few minutes it took to write this post to define what "going to a funeral" should mean surely the brains employed by the govt to draft legislation could have done the same?

athlone573

Can you quote the SI for us so we can chat about the difference between going and attending? And preferably in the first official language?

54and56

athlone573 wrote: »

Can you quote the SI for us so we can chat about the difference between going and attending? And preferably in the first official language?

You can view or download S.I. No. 322 of 2021 Health Act 1947 (Section 31A - Temporary Restrictions) (COVID-19) (No. 2) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2021 from this link

https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/1f150-view-statutory-instruments-related-to-the-covid-19-pandemic/#

athlone573

54and56 wrote: »

You can view or download S.I. No. 322 of 2021 Health Act 1947 (Section 31A - Temporary Restrictions) (COVID-19) (No. 2) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2021 from this link

https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/1f150-view-statutory-instruments-related-to-the-covid-19-pandemic/#

Good lad. Now the part of 217 where the word going is used.

54and56

athlone573 wrote: »

Good lad.

Really?

So on the actual point the reasonable excuses listed on https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/travel_abroad/travelling_abroad_during_covid.html state "To go to a funeral" but the Actual legislation (https://assets.gov.ie/134499/bb2a7e1a-4170-446d-b09d-9c024dff8d0c.pdf) states "attend a funeral" but my point ref the language being loose remains as the term "attend" is not defined (does it mean go the wake, the church service, the cemetery, the family home to sympathise etc etc?) and there is no criteria or qualification of any sort that attending be limited to the deceased being a close family member etc.

Why couldn't the Govt have narrowed the excuse to something like I already outlined below i.e. "to attend the burial or cremation service of a close family member or friend" thus erecting some sort of qualifying criteria?

As it stands providing you attend a funeral (whatever that means exactly) your travel is permitted.

athlone573

54and56 wrote: »

Really?

So on the actual point the reasonable excuses listed on https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/travel_abroad/travelling_abroad_during_covid.html state "To go to a funeral" but the Actual legislation (https://assets.gov.ie/134499/bb2a7e1a-4170-446d-b09d-9c024dff8d0c.pdf) states "attend a funeral" but my point ref the language being loose remains as the term "attend" is not defined (does it mean go the wake, the church service, the cemetery, the family home to sympathise etc etc?) and there is no criteria or qualification of any sort that attending be limited to the deceased being a close family member etc.

Why couldn't the Govt have narrowed the excuse to something like I already outlined below i.e. "to attend the burial or cremation service of a close family member or friend" thus erecting some sort of qualifying criteria?

As it stands providing you attend a funeral (whatever that means exactly) your travel is permitted.

I think that can be left to the interpretation of the court whether your purpose of travel was to "attend" a "funeral", no need to tie everything up in knots of definitions.

Peregrinus

54and56 wrote: »

Really?

So on the actual point the reasonable excuses listed on https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/travel_abroad/travelling_abroad_during_covid.html state "To go to a funeral" but the Actual legislation (https://assets.gov.ie/134499/bb2a7e1a-4170-446d-b09d-9c024dff8d0c.pdf) states "attend a funeral" but my point ref the language being loose remains as the term "attend" is not defined (does it mean go the wake, the church service, the cemetery, the family home to sympathise etc etc?) and there is no criteria or qualification of any sort that attending be limited to the deceased being a close family member etc.

Why couldn't the Govt have narrowed the excuse to something like I already outlined below i.e. "to attend the burial or cremation service of a close family member or friend" thus erecting some sort of qualifying criteria?

As it stands providing you attend a funeral (whatever that means exactly) your travel is permitted.

Where's the need to define "funeral"? Let the word have its ordinary meaning, as found by consulting dictionaries. Funerals are usually held in conjunction with a burial or cremation, but not if e.g. your deceased friend was a member of a religion that practices exposure of human remains, or if he has donated his body to science. Why the need to specify all this at length in regulations? What evil or abuse, exactly, are we seeking guard against?

54and56

Peregrinus wrote: »

Where's the need to define "funeral"? Let the word have its ordinary meaning, as found by consulting dictionaries. Funerals are usually held in conjunction with a burial or cremation, but not if e.g. your deceased friend was a member of a religion that practices exposure of human remains, or if he has donated his body to science. Why the need to specify all this at length in regulations? What evil or abuse, exactly, are we seeking guard against?

Yes, I can agree with that.

The bit I find most curious is that there isn't any qualifying criteria for attending a funeral such as it being for a close family member etc. Such criteria are set out for other Covid related restrictions e.g. no more than X people from two families and so on yet as I read the legislation you are free if you attend the funeral of someone you may have little or no family connection to.

Hopefully this malarkey will be behind us all soon enough.

Peregrinus

54and56 wrote: »

Yes, I can agree with that.

The bit I find most curious is that there isn't any qualifying criteria for attending a funeral such as it being for a close family member etc. Such criteria are set out for other Covid related restrictions e.g. no more than X people from two families and so on yet as I read the legislation you are free if you attend the funeral of someone you may have little or no family connection to.

The thinking there would probably be that not many people travel internationally in order to attend the funerals of people with whom they have no connection - i.e. this doesn't happen on a scale or with a frequency that creates a public health risk that needs to be legislated about.