Foreign Births Registration problem

cnocbui

My son has applied for Irish citizenship, due to brexit, on the basis of his grandmother being Irish.

The Foreign Births Registration office is refusing to processs his application without original documents. One document is causing a problem; his grandmother's death cert, which originates from Australia.

The original of this was submitted to the Probate Office as part of another matter related to getting a grant of probate. They retained the original and my solicitor informs they are basically refusing to return it, citing normal practice.

To say this situation seems unconscionable to me, would be putting it mildly. One branch of the civil service will only accept originals while another branch has the original and won't return it.

Is there any solution?

An obvious suggestion would be to just get another original death cert from Australia, but these documents are not public record and access is tightly controlled. At the moment, even though I am the executor, I believe I may not currently meet the identification criteria required to obtain another original.

Peregrinus

Which state of Australia?

Jim2007

The original of this was submitted to the Probate Office as part of another matter related to getting a grant of probate. They retained the original and my solicitor informs they are basically refusing to return it, citing normal practice.

There is no such thing as an original… the certificate just confirms that the record exists. It can be obtained multiple times and there is no reason why the Probate Office or any similar organization should not hold on to it.

If you need a new certificate, then you will have to find a way of complying with the process. Surely one of your close relatives entitled to make an application must be able to meet the identity requirement….

Peregrinus

The ultimate record of the death is the entry in the register of deaths maintained by the relevant government office in whichever state or territory of Australia granny died.

A death certificate is a certificate, issued by the same office, confirming that there is an entry in the register detailing granny's death, and setting out the details that appear in the register.

When other offices ask for an "original death certificate", they mean they want a issued by the office concerned and not, e.g., a photocopy, scan, etc of a certificate.

It would be a mistake to think that there is only one "original death certificate"; there can be an unlimited number of them, and more can always be obtained from the relevant office on payment of a modest fee. Back when I was practicing as a solicitor I used to advise people who had a death to register to get three or four death certificates while they were at it; you can never have too many death certificates, and it would save them going back for more later.

But not just anybody can get a death certificate. Partly because births, deaths and marriages are somewhat personal matters, but mainly because of the problem of identity fraud, generally only certain people are eligible to apply for a death certificate, eligibility usually being based on their connection with the deceased. The reason for my earlier question, "which state of Australia[did granny die in]?", was so that we could look into the eligibility rules for that state and find out how cnocbui could obtain the certificate that he needs.

And a supplementary question for cnocbui: This lady was your son's grandmother. This means, I assume, that she was either your mother or your spouse's mother. Which is it? The answer will indicate whether it is likely to be easier for you or your spouse to get the certificate your son needs.

Call me Al

Surely you just order another copy from the issuing department or county in Australia?

Peregrinus

Call me Al wrote: »

Surely you just order another copy from the issuing department or county in Australia?

They're picky. They won't issue it to just anyone. You have to satisfy them that you are an eligible applicant.

cnocbui

Jim2007 wrote: »

There is no such thing as an original… the certificate just confirms that the record exists. It can be obtained multiple times and there is no reason why the Probate Office or any similar organization should not hold on to it.

If you need a new certificate, then you will have to find a way of complying with the process. Surely one of your close relatives entitled to make an application must be able to meet the identity requirement….

I was my mothers executor. I don't have any eligible close relatives, other than my children, and they probably couldn't do it because they don't have utility bills in their names, and would be the only other people eligible to ask for an original.

I have used that original death cert to obtain Probate in WA, transfer the ownership of property, establish my rights as executor with banks in two countries. I have used it in getting an Irish pension payment stopped, to get the name changed on utility bills and have lost count of how many other times I have had to provide that death cert at various times.

If each of these organaisations had been like the Irish Probate office bleeps, it would have cost me at least $600 at $50 a pop, not to mention dragged out the length and time required to do things as executor and massivly increased the level of inconvenience, hassle and stress in doing the job.

You think that getting a cert is simple and easy and cheap, and that Irish Probate are being reasonable, well I don't agree and never will. Nor do I think it reasonable that Foreign Births won't accept a copy certified by my solicitor.

I might have to cancel my son's FBR application now, even though it was sent off 20 months ago, because it has occurred to me that if FBR have the same blasé attitude to documents as you seem to, there is a possibility they might want to retain those that have been submitted, one of which is irreplaceable - my birth cert - contrary to your notion that they are always easily obtainable, and I can't afford for that to happen.

Peregrinus

If the deceased was your mother, you should be able to get her death certificate in Western Australia. You'll need to produce your own birth cert (proving that you are her son) plus photo ID proving that you are you. Give them a ring to find out exactly what ID they will need from you - in my experience they are quite helpful.

cnocbui

Peregrinus wrote: »

If the deceased was your mother, you should be able to get her death certificate in Western Australia. You'll need to produce your own birth cert (proving that you are her son) plus photo ID proving that you are you. Give them a ring to find out exactly what ID they will need from you - in my experience they are quite helpful.

Thanks, I didn't start this thread before checking all that. The only photo ID I can use is my Australian passport, which expired at the beginning of the pandemic, and which I haven't renewed because travel to Dublin is necessary and hasn't been possible for most of the time since it started. It looks like I will first have to renew the passport, which is a ball of fun and takes a long time.

Fortunately it turns out FBR will return the original documents so that's something. I hope they will wait for however long it takes to get the required cert, because it's already taken 20 months to get this far. The Probate office are something else - they managed to twice get details wrong and had to redo it and now this beligerence.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Jim2007

cnocbui wrote: »

The only photo ID I can use is my Australian passport, which expired at the beginning of the pandemic, and which I haven't renewed because travel to Dublin is necessary and hasn't been possible for most of the time since it started.

You can renew your passport online. See the this link.

The link also points out that the FBR is suspended, BTW.

cnocbui wrote: »

You think that getting a cert is simple and easy and cheap, and that Irish Probate are being reasonable, well I don't agree and never will. Nor do I think it reasonable that Foreign Births won't accept a copy certified by my solicitor.

The means to solve this problem is within your power, if you don't want to be bothered to do it that is your choice.

cnocbui

Jim2007 wrote: »

You can renew your passport online. See the this link.

The link also points out that the FBR is suspended, BTW.

The means to solve this problem is within your power, if you don't want to be bothered to do it that is your choice.

Thanks, but that's a link for renewing an Irish passport. FBR are functioning, as my son has been in email contact with them concerning this problem.

Peregrinus

cnocbui wrote: »

Thanks, I didn't start this thread before checking all that. The only photo ID I can use is my Australian passport, which expired at the beginning of the pandemic, and which I haven't renewed because travel to Dublin is necessary and hasn't been possible for most of the time since it started. It looks like I will first have to renew the passport, which is a ball of fun and takes a long time . . .

The advice on the WA Registry website about what identification documents you need largely assumes Australian-based applicants, and specifies documents that only Australian residents are likely to have. But there is this note at the bottom:

For overseas applicants, the Registry will consider overseas equivalent evidence-of-identity documents.

So, definitely worth an email or phone call to the Registry to discuss what Irish documents you have and whether they would be acceptable.

Sonrisa

cnocbui wrote: »

Thanks, but that's a link for renewing an Irish passport. FBR are functioning, as my son has been in email contact with them concerning this problem.

FBR are barely functioning. Try and keep them up to date as much as possible while you are doing this. If they return your application you'll be starting again from the beginning and it's a 2 year processing time at this stage.