THEE, THOU, THY, and THINE vs YOU, YE, and YOUR

Swindled

I only recently realised the value of old English when studying scripture, so I thought I'd share what I learned. - I'm sure many of you already know this, but some like I, may not.

Modern English (unlike a lot of other languages) uses the same word (you) for both 'you' singular [addressing only one person] and 'you' plural [addressing many people]

However old English, (in this regard), is more accurate :

THEE, THOU, THY, and THINE are always singular. (If the second person pronoun starts with a "t" (in the English translation) then it is singular.)

YOU, YE, and YOUR are always plural. ( If it starts with a "y" it is plural.)

I think for casually reading a large chunk of scripture, the modern easier to read translations are very useful, but for serious study of a verse, it's another thing to take account of.

Couple of examples :

John 3:7. "Marvel not that I said unto THEE, YE must be born again."

Luke 22:31-32. "The Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have YOU, that he may sift YOU as wheat: but I have prayed for THEE, that THY faith fail not: and when THOU art converted, strengthen THY brethren."

2 Timothy 4:22. "The Lord Jesus Christ be with THY spirit. Grace be with YOU."

God Bless.

smacl

Swindled wrote: »

However old English, (in this regard), is more accurate :

THEE, THOU, THY, and THINE are always singular. (If the second person pronoun starts with a "t" (in the English translation) then it is singular.)

YOU, YE, and YOUR are always plural. ( If it starts with a "y" it is plural.)

Interesting stuff. Does the word "they" appear in old English?

Swindled

smacl wrote: »

Interesting stuff. Does the word "they" appear in old English?

The word "they" is often used in both the Douay-Rheims and King James Bibles, but after that I'm no expert on old English. Old English may not even be the most accurate term, that's just my term for it.

As far as I know even when the Douay-Rheims and King James Bibles were published in the 1600's the terms were falling out of use in day to day speech, but kept for formality / poetic reasons.

Knowing your thees and thous versus ye's is also handy in helping make sense of Shakespeare's works as well.

Also "ye" is still used in local dialects in some parts of Ireland.

Peregrinus

Early modern English, I think, is the technical term for the form of English spoken in England in Tudor and Stuart times, in which the Douay-Rheims and Authorised Version are written.

"They" is an exception to the "T indicates singular; Y indicates plural" rule. In EME "they" is mostly plural, but sometimes is used in a singular context, where gender is unspecified or unknown — e.g. in Phil 2:3 “In lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves” or Mt 18:35 "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

antiskeptic

Peregrinus wrote: »

Early modern English, I think, is the technical term for the form of English spoken in England in Tudor and Stuart times, in which the Douay-Rheims and Authorised Version are written.

"They" is an exception to the "T indicates singular; Y indicates plural" rule. In EME "they" is mostly plural, but sometimes is used in a singular context, where gender is unspecified or unknown — e.g. in Phil 2:3 “In lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves” or Mt 18:35 "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

Any idea whether the original languages made the distinction between the singular/plural you/youz?

Peregrinus

antiskeptic wrote: »

Any idea whether the original languages made the distinction between the singular/plural you/youz?

I don't speak either Hebrew or Greek, but I'd be very surprised if they did not distinguish clearly between singular and plural "you". Most languages do, and English did until the development of Modern English.

Which means that modern English translations, in masking the distinction, may be masking theologically significant points. Take John 3:7, which Swindled quotes in the OP. The Revised Standard Version has it as:

Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’

But the Authorised Version, which preservers the singular/plural distinction, has it as:

Marvel not that I said unto thee, ‘ye must be born again.’

What this suggests is that, although Jesus is speaking to one person (Nicodemus the Pharisee), what he is talking about, being born again, is perhaps a collective rather than (or as well as) an individual phenomenon. He's not telling Nicodemus of the necessity for him, Nicodemus, to be born again, but of the necessity of the people of which Nicodemus is a part being born again; the Jewish people. And this ties in with a later verse, verse 10, where Jesus points to Nicodemus' responsibility as "a teacher of Israel".

Thinkingaboutit

You was actually formal, so God is You in the Confiteor. The Quaker would traditionally address every man and woman as thou, not you, it was informal.

The Douay-Rheims is daily use was heavily updated in the mid eighteenth century by bp Challoner, as a literal translation which was just about understandable in the late sixteenth century (it is in part older than KJV), but presented severe difficulty later. Even later with the Confraternity and Knox translations, thou/thee/thy/thine etc. were retained as they were taken as biblical.

The point OP makes too is valid, English speakers have to rely on context, if 'ye' is not part of their informal speech.

growleaves

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

The point OP makes too is valid, English speakers have to rely on context, if 'ye' is not part of their informal speech.

They can say "y'all" (you all) in the Southern US.

"Yous" or "yiz" in Dublin.

Thinkingaboutit

The Schuyler’s Revised Standard Version is shortly to issue in a new delux version. It is an example of a contemporary bible which retains thou, thee, thy etc. It is essentially an updated KJV, a sort of Confraternity Version for Protestants although there is a version with Apocrypha for extra. It likely wouldn't interest small KJV only communities (one near me) but many will appreciate the balance struck between old and new.