Why were LPG cars never popular in Ireland?

AMKC

Surely that is what should have been promoted instead of diesel all them years back. I never liked diesel. Always thought it should just be for Vans , Lorries and Buses. It is currently only 80cent a litre for lpg if you can find a station.
I know Dacia are selling the new Sandero with lpg is anyone else doing it?

CoBo55

Myself and the father both ran cars on LPG. Very economical motoring and that was in the old days before fancy LPG injection. I saw that Dacia are doing LPG and went out to the local station where we used to buy our LPG to see how much it was only to see it was gone!!

BrianD3

I think gas conversions were quite popular in the 1970s? During the fuel crises.

Aside from that, I'd say there are multiple factors. E.g. we were late to the party when it came to motorways and long commutes by car. A lot of people worked locally or were unemployed. Car ownership per capita was low here right up until the 00s. Therefore saving money on fuel may not have been a high priority for many.

If you owned a diesel car, let alone a gas car in the 80s and 90s, you were seen as a scabby bastard/weirdo by many.

In general, we tend to be fairly bad in terms of frugality compared to the likes of Germany or eastern european countries.

CoBo55

Price was always a problem, compared to Europe it was far too expensive. It needed to be half the price of petrol or lower to make it pay. We weren't too bad as we bought one car that had a non working LPG kit already professionally installed, a few lengths of decent quality rubber hose soon had it running, LPG was very aggressive on rubber. My kit was a mish mash of secondhand components from various breakers. To get it installed properly was expensive. Some cars ran very well on it and others didn't.

FishOnABike

AMKC wrote: »

Surely that is what should have been promoted instead of diesel all them years back. I never liked diesel. Always thought it should just be for Vans , Lorries and Buses. It is currently only 80cent a litre for lpg if you can find a station.
I know Dacia are selling the new Sandero with lpg is anyone else doing it?

That and the reduction in boot space might have contributed to its lack of popularity. The initial convertion cost would also have been a disincentive and the possible impact on resale price and market size.

frozenfrozen

Lpg led to higher co2 outputs which was the reason diesel was promoted 08+

bazz26

AMKC wrote: »

Surely that is what should have been promoted instead of diesel all them years back. I never liked diesel. Always thought it should just be for Vans , Lorries and Buses. It is currently only 80cent a litre for lpg if you can find a station.
I know Dacia are selling the new Sandero with lpg is anyone else doing it?

Do you have one?

Eggs For Dinner

bazz26 wrote: »

Do you have one?

I'm picking one up on Friday. Luckily, there's a station with LPG 3kms from me

AMKC

bazz26 wrote: »

Do you have one?

No I don't. How safe would an LPG car be in a crash?

whisky_galore

Probably no more dangerous than a car filled with, I dont know, some sort of highly flammable liquid?

Speedline

AMKC wrote: »

No I don't. How safe would an LPG car be in a crash?

When is the last time you heard of an lpg car exploding in a fireball?

coylemj

AMKC wrote: »

No I don't. How safe would an LPG car be in a crash?

Probably safer than a Pinto...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9GGDOUDLhc

CoBo55

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

I'm picking one up on Friday. Luckily, there's a station with LPG 3kms from me

What are you getting? Would you let us know how it works out?

horse7

How many LPG stations in Dublin or Ireland?

CoBo55

horse7 wrote: »

How many LPG stations in Dublin or Ireland?

Here's a list https://www.flogas.ie/residential/autogas/autogas-filling-stations/all-filling-stations/

Eggs For Dinner

CoBo55 wrote: »

What are you getting? Would you let us know how it works out?

Sandero Comfort TCe 100. Yeah, I'll report back when I get it

Pekarirska

CoBo55 wrote: »

Here's a list https://www.flogas.ie/residential/autogas/autogas-filling-stations/all-filling-stations/

There's more

https://www.mylpg.eu/stations/ireland/

ccmp

I have an 87 BMW 730 that i converted 4 years ago. Has worked really well.

Speedline

Just out of interest, how well do petrol turbo cars run on lpg?

wotzgoingon

Speedline wrote: »

Just out of interest, how well do petrol turbo cars run on lpg?

The Dacia Sandero TCe 100 is a small engine turbo and has more torque with LPG than petrol but the HP stays the same.

Wishbone Ash

BrianD3 wrote: »

...If you owned a diesel car, let alone a gas car in the 80s and 90s, you were seen as a scabby bastard/weirdo by many....

I worked as a filling station attendant in the early to mid 1980's. Almost every LPG customer was a sales rep as were the few diesel car users. I hated filling the LPG. It was so much hassle compared to doing a standard petrol fill. I think I was sort of afraid of it and it was almost impossible to give the customer the exact amount they requested.

Got a new Sandero with the LPG and all that and it's grand. It feels a bit more torque-y running on LPG but to me sounds a little bit rougher around town. Both of those could well be purely in my head. :pac:
I've used just LPG for cross-country runs and get just under 7l/100km. Did well to ever get that in my old 1.8 Focus diesel.
I'm lucky enough to a couple of miles from a station I'd pass every week or two anyway. Such a pity we went purely CO2 and condemned ourselves to disgusting diesel for a couple of decades.

grogi

Speedline wrote: »

Just out of interest, how well do petrol turbo cars run on lpg?

It all comes down to the LPG components used.

Newest turbo petrols with direct fuel injection require either a V generation LPG system, which supplies the gas to the same injectors under high pressure - which is very expensive - or will burn significant punt of petrol - which limits the savings you can achieve.

Older turbo petrols, with indirect injection, work very well.

Wishbone Ash

Deleted User wrote: »

...I've used just LPG for cross-country runs and get just under 7l/100km. Did well to ever get that in my old 1.8 Focus diesel...

I wouldn't have though 7.0L/100km is particularly good (unless LPG is significantly cheaper). I get 6.0L/100km on a 1.8 petrol on long journeys.

wotzgoingon

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I wouldn't have though 7.0L/100km is particularly good (unless LPG is significantly cheaper). I get 6.0L/100km on a 1.8 petrol on long journeys.

I'd say he got that figure from the onboard computer rather than calculating it which would be more accurate than the on board computer.

Or maybe the 1 litre 3 cylinder engine didn't like driving at 120km/h.

AMKC

coylemj wrote: »

Probably safer than a Pinto...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9GGDOUDLhc

What's a Pinto and what was that I just watched?

CoBo55

wotzgoingon wrote: »

I'd say he got that figure from the onboard computer rather than calculating it which would be more accurate than the on board computer.

Or maybe the 1 litre 3 cylinder engine didn't like driving at 120km/h.

LPG is less efficient than petrol so you will burn more, that's why it needs to be significantly cheaper to make it worthwhile. With the old fumigate type systems it was about 33% less efficient, it's better now with proper ECU managed gas injectors and lambda sensors but it's still about 25%. The most accurate way to compare the fuels is to ignore litres etc and work it out as Km's per Euro or miles per pound in the time of the Dinosaurs. My fathers R18 was getting 10 miles to the pound on petrol compared to 15 miles to the pound on LPG.

grogi

CoBo55 wrote: »

LPG is less efficient than petrol so you will burn more, that's why it needs to be significantly cheaper to make it worthwhile. With the old fumigate type systems it was about 33% less efficient, it's better now with proper ECU managed gas injectors and lambda sensors but it's still about 25%.

Nonsense. With IV gen installations it's around 10% more if you compare litre per 100km consumption; LPG it's more efficient if you compare mileage per kg, but that's not what we usually compare.

People report much higher LPG consumption because it is cheaper, so there is very little incentive to keep the foot light.

CoBo55

grogi wrote: »

Nonsense. With IV gen installations it's around 10% more if you compare litre per 100km consumption; LPG it's more efficient if you compare mileage per kg, but that's not what we usually compare.

People report much higher LPG consumption because it is cheaper, so there is very little incentive to keep the foot light.

It's calorific value is less than petrol it isn't nonsense it's a scientific fact. As I've already stated km's per euro is the way to measure the difference in running costs between the fuels.

BrianD3

According to the Dacia brochure the new Sandero TCe 100 does 5.8 l/100 km with petrol and 7.4 l/100 km with LPG. Both WLTP figures. So difference of just over 25%, a bit disappointing. But still a significant saving if you live near one of the cheaper LPG suppliers who sell it for 0.7-0.8 euros per lltre vs petrol which is currently at around 1.50 euro per litre in many places.

grogi

CoBo55 wrote: »

It's calorific value is less than petrol it isn't nonsense it's a scientific fact. As I've already stated km's per euro is the way to measure the difference in running costs between the fuels.

LPG caloric value is bigger than with petrol, energy density is lower however by around 25%.

LPG has a typical specific calorific value of 46.1 MJ/kg compared with 43.5 MJ/kg for premium grade petrol (gasoline). However, its energy density per volume unit of 26 MJ/L is lower than either that of petrol 32 MJ/L

But energy density is not everything: LPG has much higher octane rating - 112 - which allows the ECU to delay ignition and achieve much more efficient combustion and run smoothly with lower engine rpms.

Before my Irish life I have done many maaaaany thousands of kilometers on LPG. With all other things equal it was always around 10% less efficient and that's what I always used. But those were very subjective measurements, so I might be wrong and came too strong with the 'nonsense' statement. I'll work on that for future.

With normal driving, without trying to compare anything, I was getting 50% less economy on LPG Much more fun though.

CoBo55

grogi wrote: »

LPG caloric value is bigger than with petrol, energy density is lower however by around 25%.



But energy density is not everything: LPG has much higher octane rating - 112 - which allows the ECU to delay ignition and achieve much more efficient combustion and run smoothly with lower engine rpms.

Before my Irish life I have done many maaaaany thousands of kilometers on LPG. With all other things equal it was always around 10% less efficient and that's what I always used. But those were very subjective measurements, so I might be wrong and came too strong with the 'nonsense' statement. I'll work on that for future.

With normal driving, without trying to compare anything, I was getting 50% less economy on LPG Much more fun though.

As I said earlier I was giving figures for old type LPG systems with distributor ignition systems. We also did many thousands of miles on LPG and consistently got the figures I quoted. The LPG tank in the Renault 18 cost 15 pounds to fill and bang on 225 miles she'd start to fade away. My Cortina did 13 miles on LPG which was a huge improvement on the 6 it was giving on petrol not helped by Henry's piece of junk carburettor.

CoBo55

BrianD3 wrote: »

According to the Dacia brochure the new Sandero TCe 100 does 5.8 l/100 km with petrol and 7.4 l/100 km with LPG. Both WLTP figures. So difference of just over 25%, a bit disappointing. But still a significant saving if you live near one of the cheaper LPG suppliers who sell it for 0.7-0.8 euros per lltre vs petrol which is currently at around 1.50 euro per litre in many places.

Looks like Dacia support my figures. Don't worry about MPG etc use the km's per euro and you'll see the difference. Let us know how you get on, I'm still a great fan of LPG (provided it's cheap enough:D) . How much does a fill of LPG cost these days?

AMKC

BrianD3 wrote: »

According to the Dacia brochure the new Sandero TCe 100 does 5.8 l/100 km with petrol and 7.4 l/100 km with LPG. Both WLTP figures. So difference of just over 25%, a bit disappointing. But still a significant saving if you live near one of the cheaper LPG suppliers who sell it for 0.7-0.8 euros per lltre vs petrol which is currently at around 1.50 euro per litre in many places.

I hope to pick one of the brochures up at some stage if the local Renault Dacia showroom bothers there arse to get any. They still had brochures for the old Clio and old Sandero on the stand.

CoBo55

AMKC wrote: »

I hope to pick one of the brochures up at some stage if the local Renault Dacia showroom bothers there arse to get any. They still had brochures for the old Clio and old Sandero on the stand.

Ah jaysus there's no dealer carrying paper brochures anymore. All the info you need is on their website.

wotzgoingon

CoBo55 wrote: »

Looks like Dacia support my figures. Don't worry about MPG etc use the km's per euro and you'll see the difference. Let us know how you get on, I'm still a great fan of LPG (provided it's cheap enough:D) . How much does a fill of LPG cost these days?

I know someone who has the Sandero LPG. It takes 33 litres to fill the tank in that car which is €25-29 depending on where you fill up.

CoBo55

wotzgoingon wrote: »

I know someone who has the Sandero LPG. It takes 33 litres to fill the tank in that car which is €25-29 depending on where you fill up.

Any idea of how many Km's they get for that fill?
The nearest station to me is Boggans in Wexford town unfortunately they're one of the dearer suppliers, no surprise for Wexford:pac:

Oh, I just remembered, another factor regarding LPG is the type of LPG you get, the more propane in the mix the better. Boggans LPG was almost completely propane and the difference was very noticable especially in acceleration and starting. One of those links shows which mix of propane/butane they're selling.

Cabaal

AMKC wrote: »

What's a Pinto and what was that I just watched?

The movie is top secret https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Secret!

A Pinto was a death trap because Ford wanted to save money

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto

The safety of the design of the Pinto's fuel system led to critical incidents and subsequently resulted in a recall, lawsuits, a criminal prosecution, and public controversy. The events surrounding the controversy have been described as a "landmark narrative".[53] The Ford Pinto has been cited and debated in numerous business ethics[54][55] as well as tort reform[56][57] case studies.

The placement of the car's fuel tank was the result of both conservative industry practice of the time as well the uncertain regulatory environment during the development and early sales periods of the car. Ford was accused of knowing the car had an unsafe tank placement then forgoing design changes based on an internal cost-benefit analysis. Two landmark legal cases, Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co. and Indiana v. Ford Motor Co., resulted from fatal accidents involving Pintos.[58]

Scholarly work published in the decades after the Pinto's release has examined the cases and offered summations of the general understanding of the Pinto and the controversy regarding the car's safety performance and risk of fire. These works reviewed misunderstandings related to the actual number of fire-related deaths related to the fuel system design, "wild and unsupported claims asserted in Pinto Madness and elsewhere",[59] the facts of the related legal cases, Grimshaw vs Ford Motor Company and State of Indiana vs Ford Motor Company, the applicable safety standards at the time of design, and the nature of the NHTSA investigations and subsequent vehicle recalls.[60] One described the Grimshaw case as "mythical" due to several significant factual misconceptions and their impact on the public's understanding.[61]

CoBo55

Cabaal wrote: »

The movie is top secret https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Secret!

A Pinto was a death trap because Ford wanted to save money

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto

What any of that has to do with LPG is beyond me...

Mooretaxi

CoBo55 wrote: »

As I said earlier I was giving figures for old type LPG systems with distributor ignition systems. We also did many thousands of miles on LPG and consistently got the figures I quoted. The LPG tank in the Renault 18 cost 15 pounds to fill and bang on 225 miles she'd start to fade away. My Cortina did 13 miles on LPG which was a huge improvement on the 6 it was giving on petrol not helped by Henry's piece of junk carburettor.

Was that Renault 18 an estate?, I bought an ex Guinness 18 estate that had a gas conversion fitted, newest car I ever had at the time but the reason I could afford it was because it went on fire due to a fault in the gas system, luckily there was a local scrapper who had one so no shortage of parts, after the gas system was completely removed, including the divided fuel tank it was a very comfortable and reliable car

CoBo55

Mooretaxi wrote: »

Was that Renault 18 an estate?, I bought an ex Guinness 18 estate that had a gas conversion fitted, newest car I ever had at the time but the reason I could afford it was because it went on fire due to a fault in the gas system, luckily there was a local scrapper who had one so no shortage of parts, after the gas system was completely removed, including the divided fuel tank it was a very comfortable and reliable car

No it was a lowly Wexford registered 1400 TL saloon it ran like a bird on the lpg.

zg3409

I looked into this seriously before as I planned on getting a gas guzzling petrol.

I have an lpg pump very close to me but it's only open office hours and on a Saturday morning. The other was mid commute, but out of the way.

There are worries of premature engine failure due to less lubrication than petrol. You would think an lpg conversion adds value but often the cars seem harder to sell and you may have insurance problems ( need to notify insurer)

It's probably better to buy an already converted lpg car cheap than pay to convert a non lpg car.

Electric is the new LPG. Often 80% less running costs and half price tolls. Not ideal for massive sales reps as you may need to stop every few hours at specific places to recharge.

I see they are talking about rolling out natural gas filling stations mainly for trucks at Irish sites but not heard much recently.

fryup

i wish my car was LPG, seeing how much petrol costs lately