European Commission calls out Irish Insurance

Vicxas

https://www.thejournal.ie/european-commission-accuses-lack-of-competition-by-insurance-ireland-5470570-Jun2021/

About time Europe took notice of the disgrace that is the Irish insurance market.

spring lane jack

MOD: Please take yourself elsewhere and don't post in this thread again.

Wibbs

The dogs in the street knew this. We all do. Yes we have higher payouts and ambulance chasing solicitors milking it, but the insurance industry here is clearly taking the piss and have been doing so in plain sight for as long as I can remember. And sadly nothing will change. The political will of FG/FF simply isn't there. Indeed a cynic might wonder if the political will to keep things exactly as they are is more in play...

CoBo55

Blah blah blah... Nothing will change on treasure Island.

Darc19

Didn't they change it once the investigation was announced?

Btw, insurance has definitely fallen substantially recently. My motor policy came in at €367 this year including class 1 business use.

Using an address I used to be at in the UK (bishop's Stortford) the best UK quote was £408. That's quite a change from 3 years ago.

And a staff member who just got her license was quoted under €1,000 for a vw polo.

wonski

It's not about prices.

It is about access.

Some posters in similar threads before were making a point that if car insurance in Ireland is such a great business why don't we have more competition.

This should answer that question. Who in their right mind would join market like that. Without any data available.

I pay low price these days, too, but it isn't just about me, also the prices only went down in last 2 or 3 years. What was before is to be forgotten.

Aviva and AXA are operating on European markets at different terms than their counterparts who want to get a slice of Irish Market. It doesn't matter if they are Irish companies or not what matters is that all European insurance companies should have same access to the market regardless of their origin or pricing.

Irish Insurance market made sure it didn't happen.

wonski

CoBo55 wrote: »

Blah blah blah... Nothing will change on treasure Island.

Or maybe they will have no choice and New insurers will show up here in 2 years time.

Alternatively prices will go down further for certain customers.

Sure it is better than nothing to see some investigation going on.

It can only improve things.

CoBo55

wonski wrote: »

Or maybe they will have no choice and New insurers will show up here in 2 years time.

Alternatively prices will go down further for certain customers.

Sure it is better than nothing to see some investigation going on.

It can only improve things.

Hopefully but I don't hold out much hope tbh, premiums dip for a while like some of us are seeing now and then they climb up steadily again.

mikeecho

CoBo55 wrote: »

Blah blah blah... Nothing will change on treasure Island.

Totally agree.

While there may be regulatory bodies in this country.. they have no power or teeth.

Stay tuned for the status quo

Dr_Colossus

Darc19 wrote: »

Btw, insurance has definitely fallen substantially recently. My motor policy came in at €367 this year including class 1 business use.

That's very good in fairness.
I had to pay €508 + €44 loading due to 3 penalty points (caught doing 89 in an 80 zone that used to be 100 a few years ago) in May this year for TPFT. That's the best I could get having tried about 10 insurers and a few wouldn't even quote me as car is over 10 years old despite a yearly NCT.

Same policy last year was €452 after a €30 Covid refund.
In 2019 I paid €465 and in 2018 €484.

CiniO

Once the insurance cost starts being prohibitive and is making people walk away from owning a car they want, or even walking away from owing a car at all, then it means there's something majorly wrong.
Irish market has proven to be perfect example of the above. Regular people often can't afford a car at all due to insurance cost, not to even mention affording a nice car which some would like to have - not a hope for most.
Running a business here is also so much dependent on insurance cost that many people had to close their businesses as they couldn't afford to buy basic insurance.
It's very clear there's something really really wrong with the whole system.

Darc19

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

That's very good in fairness.
I had to pay €508 + €44 loading due to 3 penalty points (caught doing 89 in an 80 zone that used to be 100 a few years ago) in May this year for TPFT. That's the best I could get having tried about 10 insurers and a few wouldn't even quote me as car is over 10 years old despite a yearly NCT.

Same policy last year was €452 after a €30 Covid refund.
In 2019 I paid €465 and in 2018 €484.

Mine is aig. Adding herself brought it from just over €400 to the €367

Older car does cause issues if it's a new insurer. Also safety features of newer cars gives better quotes.

Try a sample quote with a 2018 Volvo and see what the difference is.

Dempo1

It just seems this entire Insurance Gouging debacle is going around in circles. The EU telling us what we already know is utterly meaningless. Only a few months ago the Irish Government "Chatted" with insurance companies only to be completely ignored and all we keep hearing is the same old S*****, that premiums 'Could" reduce when the facts are quite clear they haven't snd won't.

The Pandemic also in a strange way showed just how ludicrous the situation is, many, many motorists spent months looking out the window at their cars in Driveways, a few token vouchers offered by some insurers, certainly Not mine (Aviva).

The only thing that does appear to be happening is a greater focus on tackling fraudulent claims but nothing in the way of reducing premiums.

Just this morning I note an article in the Indo, a lady quoted over €7k, she got cover on provisional licence in Scotland for just over €400. Who makes up these quotes in Ireland, it's as if there's a gouge Button, underwriters press when quoting irish motorists.

I've been watching this story for over 20 years, there'll be more promises, more reports, sanctimonious sympathy and NOTHING and I mean Nothing will change.

Just as an aside, I got my 1st ever insurance 35 years ago. The actual insurance I paid at the time was 3,900 irish Punts on a 1st car valued at 1,000 irish punts, that was 35 years ago folks

Darc19

You won't get quoted with a provisional license in Scotland. I suspect that she was a named driver and comparing it with own name insurance here.

Then takes the highest quote here v the lowest quote in Scotland


Remember it's the Indo. Not known for truthful reporting.

Dempo1

Darc19 wrote: »

You won't get quoted with a provisional license in Scotland. I suspect that she was a named driver and comparing it with own name insurance here.

Then takes the highest quote here v the lowest quote in Scotland


Remember it's the Indo. Not known for truthful reporting.

Point taken re Indo the main point however is the actual quote she got here in Ireland and sadly its not by any stretch of the imagination new. Fundamentally the issue remains that Irish Motorists will continue to be gouged, I don't see any reform likely and the Industry will in essence countine to put their respective two fingers up to consumers and of course always find away around and legislative ideas.

This latest EU report is meaningless nonsense.

Wibbs

Darc19 wrote: »

You won't get quoted with a provisional license in Scotland. I suspect that she was a named driver and comparing it with own name insurance here.

Then takes the highest quote here v the lowest quote in Scotland


Remember it's the Indo. Not known for truthful reporting.

I had a look for the article but instead got the same story from the Sunday World. The woman in question says:

A young motorist who was quoted nearly €8,000 to be added to her mother’s insurance policy has accused insurers of taking advantage of learner drivers.


So according to her/them that quote was as a name driver on her mother's insurance.

As for Scotland:

Ms Cosgrave, who is from Dublin, recently moved to Scotland to study nursing. She bought a car there at the start of the year and insured it for just over £500. She is due to sit her driving test in Dundee next month.

Again according to the woman in question it seems you can get a policy in Scotland as a learner unless I'm missing something Darc? Unless her ma who isn't resident in Scotland is the primary insurer I can't see how it would work otherwise.

Now that is an extreme example and needs some verification, though I'd take her at her word, unless she's been misquoted(hardly unknown). Over the years for the craic I've looked at how much my car(older so that's bad automatically and a model considered toxic here) insurance would cost in Europe. The differences were stark. The basic thumbnail upshot was at the very worst half the price, but more like a third and often for better coverage. To give but one example; three years ago on a mostly UK based forum I'm on I mentioned I was paying nearly 1600 quid TPFT on my car(it has since halved for comp), when a British chap came back shocked at that price as he'd lost his licence the previous year due to a failure to provide(?) which loaded him and he was paying the equivalent of 1000 euro even after that and for fully comp. The rest of the UK guys not loaded were paying more like half that and many were younger than me with it.

That we're being asked to pay more, often significantly more for car insurance here is pretty much a given. There are a few reasons for that, yes higher payouts and ambulance chasing, but the insurance companies themselves seem to have done precious little about that over decades, especially given they whine about it constantly as the reason for the high premiums. For a start they settle a majority of claims on the courts steps, the details of which are hidden. It seems logical that such claims are cheaper to settle that way, so why do they only wheel out the cases that made it to court as examples? They also took their time opening up to allow the Gardai spot uninsured drivers on the road. That this industry played fast and loose with information for European insurers does not surprise me one bit.

Henry Ford III

Mods. Might be an idea to move this one to the insurance form also?

Eggs For Dinner

You really need deep in to the story to understand what this is all about and it has nothing to do with price fixing. Insurance Ireland is a collective of insurers who fund a system where claims and related information is shared among members. It's main function is to cut down on fraud, which benefits motorists, Insurers and society in general.

Why should Insurance Ireland pay for the operation of the scheme and pass the benefits of to competitors for nothing? All they are saying is, become a member, pay your share of the subs and you can access the information. To my knowledge, no insurer has had an application for membership refused.

What's going to happen is that if Insurance Ireland are forced to disclose their information to competitors for nothing, they will close the scheme and that's in nobody's interest. Be careful what you wish for

PCeeeee

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

What's going to happen is that if Insurance Ireland are forced to disclose their information to competitors for nothing, they will close the scheme and that's in nobody's interest. Be careful what you wish for

They would also be getting their competitors info in return. I can't see how it would be better to close the scheme and operate blind if indeed the scheme was of benefit before

Eggs For Dinner

PCeeeee wrote: »

They would also be getting their competitors info in return. I can't see how it would be better to close the scheme and operate blind if indeed the scheme was of benefit before

The sharing of adverse claim and fraud information is extremely beneficial. I'm just saying that I don't see Insurance Ireland continuing to fund it for the sake of competitors thinking of trading here. Perhaps a national database run by the Regulator is the answer.

galwaytt

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

You really need deep in to the story to understand what this is all about and it has nothing to do with price fixing. Insurance Ireland is a collective of insurers who fund a system where claims and related information is shared among members. It's main function is to cut down on fraud, which benefits motorists, Insurers and society in general.

Why should Insurance Ireland pay for the operation of the scheme and pass the benefits of to competitors for nothing? All they are saying is, become a member, pay your share of the subs and you can access the information. To my knowledge, no insurer has had an application for membership refused.

What's going to happen is that if Insurance Ireland are forced to disclose their information to competitors for nothing, they will close the scheme and that's in nobody's interest. Be careful what you wish for

Well one thing that data would open up others to is the lie that cars 10yrs old and more are a higher risk.

None of the big players here who are in II would get away with the penalising practice in their other markets.

The fact our 2006 Clio is almost the same insurance as our 2016 CLS illustrates it perfectly.

Eggs For Dinner

It's about sharing claim data with potential insurers considering entry in to the market, not Joe Public. As for the 10+ year old car thing, why aren't the majority of insurers interested in quoting for that business, including those NOT in Insurance Ireland??.

Wibbs

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

As for the 10+ year old car thing, why aren't the majority of insurers interested in quoting for that business, including those NOT in Insurance Ireland??.

Why does insurance in the rest of Europe tend to go down the older the car? Why is Irish insurance the outlier? Dodgy claims? OK, so again why do we not see the same in other countries? Secondly in cases of fraud fair enough, then don't insure older cars recently bought, but if someone is driving the same car for five years apparently low risk, how do they magically become potential fraudsters when the car turns eleven? Claims are down, the insurance industry is returning profits year on year over the last ten, some broker's commision has gone up over 30% in the interim, we've just had a year of lockdowns and reduced miles covered and what's the bet insurance premiums will rise this year? The UK has the lowest insurance premiums because of it and they've been dropping over the last six years.

It's not just this latest report into the shenanigans here. It's an ongoing thing.

The EU case is the latest investigation into unfair or anti-competitive practices in Ireland's insurance sector.

The Central Bank of Ireland is conducting a separate review into the practice of dual pricing whereby new customers are charged lower premiums with existing, loyal consumers losing out.

An interim report published in December found that dual pricing was taking place across the private car and home insurance markets.

The UK's financial watchdog has already banned dual pricing and the Government and Central Bank are coming under pressure to do likewise.

Car insurance premiums have hit the headlines many times over the last decade as prices have rocketed.

Premiums paid by motorists increased by 35% from 2009 to 2019, yet claims cost per policy decreased 9% over the same period, a report from the Central Bank found last November.

Personal injury payouts certainly need to be addressed and brought down, but the Irish insurance industry and it's dodgy practices need an enema too. We've been ripped off so long the Irish consumer has gotten used to it.

Eggs For Dinner

My wife has insured her '07 Ford Focus with various insurers for well under €400. She bought it in 2012

Commission paid to brokers can increase in return for additional workload taken on by them and off the insurer. A 36% increase would bring 10% up to near 14%. Big deal

You can't compare the UK market, or any other jurisdiction, to Ireland, even though it's the exact same insurers over here. Why don't AXA, Aviva, Allianz, Zurich etc just offer a standard "European" price? Why do they offer a different quote in Portugal compared to Hungary?

Dual pricing is a scourge and should be made illegal. It should include Gas, Electricity, Broadband, Sky & Mobile networks

Bottom line is insurance is too dear in Ireland and not sustainable. Hopefully the new book of quantum will begin to ease the pressures that cause premium increases

Wibbs

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

My wife has insured her '07 Ford Focus with various insurers for well under €400. She bought it in 2012

It does seem of late anyway that length of ownership is being taken into account and that's a good thing and a good start. I've certainly noticed that with my Honda Babyeater 2000. A broker actually mentioned that to me and my premium has over halved since 2018. It's 800 squids, but still... Your wife is clearly a good "risk" after nearly a decade of driving the same car without issue. I mean what's the point of the NCT is another factor? People like her should be rewarded, regardless of the age of the vehicle, rather than some blanket rule. It's not even a blanket rule, because broker A can have a large difference in premium offered compared to Broker B, even though it's the same underwriter, while going direct to the underwriter can mean telephone numbers, or not. It's all over the place and not just with dual pricing.

You can't compare the UK market, or any other jurisdiction, to Ireland, even though it's the exact same insurers over here. Why don't AXA, Aviva, Allianz, Zurich etc just offer a standard "European" price? Why do they offer a different quote in Portugal compared to Hungary?

As you say yourself Eggs, insurance is too dear here. And that expense is not just down to local variables in the market. I don't blame individual brokers, they're at the sharp end, I do blame the top of the hierarchy who are at the sharp practices IMHO.

Dual pricing is a scourge and should be made illegal. It should include Gas, Electricity, Broadband, Sky & Mobile networks

We agree here 100%. With one utility provider the lass at the other end of the phone essentially told me I was paying way too much because I was a "loyal customer" of many years and how to circumvent that. It seems "calls may be recorded for training purposes" can be switched off.

Irish Steve

My wife has had the same car for 12 years, it's a little tiny 2000 996cc Fiat Seicento, and we've never made a claim on it, but that didn't stop the insurance company gouging her for an extra 25% on the premium this year, an increase of nearly €100, and given things like Covid that have meant reduced mileage, and other issues, I see that as plain and simple profiteering, which unfortunately, we couldn't do much about, as we had to travel to the UK to care for a terminally ill relative, so ringing round etc to get a better quote wasn't really an option.

I will be interested to see what figure they come back with for my renewal this year.

mgbgt1978

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

You really need deep in to the story to understand what this is all about and it has nothing to do with price fixing. Insurance Ireland is a collective of insurers who fund a system where claims and related information is shared among members. It's main function is to cut down on fraud, which benefits motorists, Insurers and society in general.

Why should Insurance Ireland pay for the operation of the scheme and pass the benefits of to competitors for nothing? All they are saying is, become a member, pay your share of the subs and you can access the information. To my knowledge, no insurer has had an application for membership refused.

What's going to happen is that if Insurance Ireland are forced to disclose their information to competitors for nothing, they will close the scheme and that's in nobody's interest. Be careful what you wish for

Is it not the case that to become a Member of Insurance Ireland a new entrant to the Irish Market must be in operation in Ireland for at least one complete year ?


Surely it is patently obvious that while applications may not have been refused per se, they were certainly ignored for at least 12 months.



It is very clear that any Insurer wishing to enter the Irish Market will not have access to the Insurance Ireland database for at least 12 months, and consequently are operating 'blind' during their initial start-up period.

Eggs For Dinner

I'm not aware of the waiting period, it could well be true.

Let's take the 'operating blind' point a little further. That would suggest that potential insurers are coming in to a market that has a unique claims environment compared to other territories that they operate in. Why don't they just use the pricing structure they use in Belgium, Portugal, Britain etc.? Other insurers tried that previously and didn't last long, either going bust or exiting the market.

If potential insurers get access to the data, they will price their offerings similar to what's on offer, or they will target niche areas. Don't get me wrong, competition is the key to lower premiums, but unless insurers can make profit at the lower level, consumers won't get affordable insurance. Claims payment and (as important) claim costs need to be realistic

mgbgt1978

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

I'm not aware of the waiting period, it could well be true.

Strange that you are not aware of a 12 month waiting period (many would call it an Exclusion Period). It was pointed out specifically to yourself nearly 2 years ago;
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110882713
Here, I've given you a link to their site just in case you don't believe me a second time :

https://www.insuranceireland.eu/about-us/about-us/insurance-ireland-membership

edit; Eggs For Dinner has stated ; Why should Insurance Ireland pay for the operation of the scheme and pass the benefits of to competitors for nothing?
The main issue the Commission has appears to be the denial of membership for new entrants, no mention of any Company looking for free access;
"The Commission considers that Insurance Ireland arbitrarily delayed or de facto denied access to the system to companies that had a legitimate interest in joining it, and that hurdles remain in place that might affect companies seeking to enter the Irish motor insurance market,”

kaahooters

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

I'm not aware of the waiting period, it could well be true.

Let's take the 'operating blind' point a little further. That would suggest that potential insurers are coming in to a market that has a unique claims environment compared to other territories that they operate in. Why don't they just use the pricing structure they use in Belgium, Portugal, Britain etc.? Other insurers tried that previously and didn't last long, either going bust or exiting the market.

If potential insurers get access to the data, they will price their offerings similar to what's on offer, or they will target niche areas. Don't get me wrong, competition is the key to lower premiums, but unless insurers can make profit at the lower level, consumers won't get affordable insurance. Claims payment and (as important) claim costs need to be realistic

it really sounds like you work for an insurer and dont even know the practices are is illegal.

fun times ahead so.