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Worst case BEV range

  • 12-06-2021 12:54pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 7,247 ✭✭✭ tom1ie


    Hi all, not sure if there’s a thread that captures all the different BEV ranges in a worse case scenario as this would help me chose which EV to be looking at getting as I do high mileage and long single trips.
    For example a 210km one way trip 90% of which would be motorway at 120kph, no destination charging.
    Then various stops along approx 50kph (again no destination charging)
    Then the 210km home with 90% motorway at 120kph.
    These trips would also be done in deepest darkest winter.
    I would install a home charger and get night rate etc.

    Could we also get the price of the car along with the range.
    Thanks folks.


Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,294 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Hi all, not sure if there’s a thread that captures all the different BEV ranges in a worse case scenario as this would help me chose which EV to be looking at getting as I do high mileage and long single trips.
    For example a 210km one way trip 90% of which would be motorway at 120kph, no destination charging.
    Then various stops along approx 50kph (again no destination charging)
    Then the 210km home with 90% motorway at 120kph.
    These trips would also be done in deepest darkest winter.
    I would install a home charger and get night rate etc.

    Could we also get the price of the car along with the range.
    Thanks folks.

    So a car with 470km range at 120kmph?
    That’s a tough one to fill for less than €100kmph I’d imagine.

    Will the new top end Tesla or Porsche do it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,732 ✭✭✭ graememk


    Very hard, if not impossible to do all that without charging - in the cold wet winter, but as your motorway driving you'll prob be near a good few charge points.

    Which motorways in particular?

    Do you normally stop anywhere on the way there or home?

    You'd want one that's faster charging, eg id3/4 (77kwh) or the tesla's or Porsche! Depends on budget!

    Best time for charging is after a long trip, when the charge is low, when everything is warm. Maybe somewhere on the way home or before you arrive at your first stop.


  • Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭ sameoldname


    Model S long range might be able to do it even during winter but you'll never be able to charge it fully overnight at home on single phase at 7kw so you'd need 3 phase 22kw if that's what you want to do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,247 ✭✭✭ tom1ie


    graememk wrote: »
    Very hard, if not impossible to do all that without charging - in the cold wet winter, but as your motorway driving you'll prob be near a good few charge points.

    Which motorways in particular?

    Do you normally stop anywhere on the way there or home?

    You'd want one that's faster charging, eg id3/4 (77kwh) or the tesla's or Porsche! Depends on budget!

    Best time for charging is after a long trip, when the charge is low, when everything is warm. Maybe somewhere on the way home or before you arrive at your first stop.

    So it would be the m7 and m9 and possibly the M1 also. I'm based on the east coast.

    I wouldn't usually stop, maybe for 10 mins at a service station. So I would like to keep the pit stop to a minimum so I presume I'd want something that charges very quickly.

    What's the fastest charging car on the market with a large battery?

    I drive an ice with no debt so I don't want to go mad with monthly repayments to be honest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,247 ✭✭✭ tom1ie


    Model S long range might be able to do it even during winter but you'll never be able to charge it fully overnight at home on single phase at 7kw so you'd need 3 phase 22kw if that's what you want to do.

    Right so I'd have to get a 3p supply into the house if I wanted to fully charge overnight.
    I imagine that would not be cheap.
    How long would it take to fully charge a model s long range at 7kw?


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  • Moderators Posts: 11,980 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight


    tom1ie wrote: »
    So it would be the m7 and m9 and possibly the M1 also. I'm based on the east coast.

    I wouldn't usually stop, maybe for 10 mins at a service station. So I would like to keep the pit stop to a minimum so I presume I'd want something that charges very quickly.

    What's the fastest charging car on the market with a large battery?

    I drive an ice with no debt so I don't want to go mad with monthly repayments to be honest.

    Fast charging, big battery, long range. Pretty limited options, but if you're willing to stop and charge it's doable. If your mileage is big you'll save maybe 2k a year in fuel, and 50% off your tolls for at least another year I believe. Call it €200 saved a month. Factor that in when you're looking at repayments.

    The id3 77kWh has over 500km range. More like 400 on motorways, and more towards 350 in winter I'd imagine. It's 40k and I believe 0% finance is available. Worth a look? It charges fast enough and those routes are pretty well served by chargers (depends where you turn off though). 20 minute stop might be all you'd need. Id3 owners might weigh in here ..


  • Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭ sameoldname


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Right so I'd have to get a 3p supply into the house if I wanted to fully charge overnight.
    I imagine that would not be cheap.
    How long would it take to fully charge a model s long range at 7kw?

    From completely empty to full in ~15 hours at 7kw and ~7 hours at 22kw. It actually only uses 16.5kw not the full 22.
    To be fair, it's a €93,000 car, the cost of getting 3 phase installed would be fairly small in comparison.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,924 ✭✭✭ zg3409


    In terms of really fast motorway stops for filling electric cars, Tesla has Tesla only chargers at a few motorway sites in Ireland. To get a quick fill battery would need to be low.

    Ionity are the only other really fast provider (ESB maybe has 2 sites) and ionity will charge Tesla and non Tesla, same with ESB.

    The use case and battery charging with an electric car is different than say a diesel. With electric typically you want to charge as much at home as possibly, and arrive back a bit low to fill up again at home. Motorway charging is relatively fast at a few sites in the country, but only if your battery % is low and only if you have a car capable of faster speeds. Tesla generally wins at charging speeds.

    As for your use case depreciation may be a high cost, you may be able to expense your existing diesel and toll costs. You need to look at public charging network and that is real downside of EV ownership and look at upside in terms of lower fuel and toll costs.

    For travelling salesman who can expense costs a diesel might make more sense.

    In terms of range, in winter, dropping speed from say 120km to 110km may get you home without needing to charge and may work out quicker with a stop less. When you have range to spare you can drive it like you stole it.

    I would think long and hard and research carefully, particularly the public charging network before committing to a 50,000+ euro EV. Cars that need a couple of charging stops may make more sense than a 100,000 electric car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,247 ✭✭✭ tom1ie


    zg3409 wrote: »
    In terms of really fast motorway stops for filling electric cars, Tesla has Tesla only chargers at a few motorway sites in Ireland. To get a quick fill battery would need to be low.

    Ionity are the only other really fast provider (ESB maybe has 2 sites) and ionity will charge Tesla and non Tesla, same with ESB.

    The use case and battery charging with an electric car is different than say a diesel. With electric typically you want to charge as much at home as possibly, and arrive back a bit low to fill up again at home. Motorway charging is relatively fast at a few sites in the country, but only if your battery % is low and only if you have a car capable of faster speeds. Tesla generally wins at charging speeds.

    As for your use case depreciation may be a high cost, you may be able to expense your existing diesel and toll costs. You need to look at public charging network and that is real downside of EV ownership and look at upside in terms of lower fuel and toll costs.

    For travelling salesman who can expense costs a diesel might make more sense.

    In terms of range, in winter, dropping speed from say 120km to 110km may get you home without needing to charge and may work out quicker with a stop less. When you have range to spare you can drive it like you stole it.

    I would think long and hard and research carefully, particularly the public charging network before committing to a 50,000+ euro EV. Cars that need a couple of charging stops may make more sense than a 100,000 electric car.

    Thanks for this post and thanks to all so far with getting back to me.
    It's a big decision for sure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,010 ✭✭✭ fricatus


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Hi all, not sure if there’s a thread that captures all the different BEV ranges in a worse case scenario as this would help me chose which EV to be looking at getting as I do high mileage and long single trips.
    For example a 210km one way trip 90% of which would be motorway at 120kph, no destination charging.
    Then various stops along approx 50kph (again no destination charging)
    Then the 210km home with 90% motorway at 120kph.
    These trips would also be done in deepest darkest winter.
    I would install a home charger and get night rate etc.

    Could we also get the price of the car along with the range.
    Thanks folks.

    This site is very good, although it would be nice if they also showed figures for cars no longer on sale as new:

    https://ev-database.org


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  • Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭ silver_sky


    fricatus wrote: »
    This site is very good, although it would be nice if they also showed figures for cars no longer on sale as new:

    https://ev-database.org


    They have an archive of non-current vehicles that's linked in the footer.


    https://ev-database.org/compare/second-hand-used-electric-vehicle-archive


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,247 ✭✭✭ tom1ie


    fricatus wrote: »
    This site is very good, although it would be nice if they also showed figures for cars no longer on sale as new:

    https://ev-database.org

    Great website thanks.
    Specs on that BMW i4 eDrive40 look incredible to be honest.
    54k Sterling. I wonder how much here!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,840 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    It looks like I can get around 400km from my ID.4 77kWh on warm summers days, probably closer to 325km in winter

    FWIW, here's how I think it'll work out if you get the ID.4 or ID.3 with the 77kWh battery

    From your OP, I'm guessing you do some kind of travelling saleman type of job? Multiple short stops throughout the day with no chance to AC charge

    So you're basically going to have a DC charge at least once a day, probably twice in winter

    Since you're coming up the M7,the best approach might be to budget a 15 mins stop at Ionity in Kill. You'll probably be hitting the charger with around 50% SoC which unfortunately means you won't get great speeds, probably 60kW which will give you back 15kWh in that stop

    77+15kWh gives you 92kWh which is basically a 20% bump in range
    So somewhere between 500km summer and 390km winter

    For winter,you'll probably need to budget another 15 mins stop on the way home. You'll likely be at a lower SoC so charging speeds might be better, but if you get another 15kWh then that'll be enough for your journey home

    You'll need a full 11 hours to charge at home using 7kW AC

    To be clear, I'm not really recommending the ID.4 for this. It'll definitely be a change from what you're used to and you're probably close to an edge case in terms of usage. I just wanted to give an idea of what it would be like with an ID.4 or ID.3 based on my experience


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,840 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    FWIW, here's an estimate of the savings you'd see from moving from a Diesel car to an EV

    |Diesel mobile|VW ID.4 77kWh
    Annual milage (km)|125000|125000
    ||
    Electric economy (kWh/100km)||22.5
    Combined fuel ecomony (l/100km)|5.5|
    ||
    Charger losses|10.00%|10.00%
    DC Charging Percentage (%)||0.35
    Total Electricity used (kWh)||28125
    Domestic Electricity used (kWh)||18281.25
    DC Charging Electricity used (kWh)||9843.75
    Fuel used (l)|6875|
    ||
    Home Electricity cost (€/kWh)|0.09|
    DC Charge Electricity cost (€/kWh)|0.3|
    Fuel cost (€/l)|1.4|
    ||
    ||
    Annual costs||
    Maintenance|250|85
    NCT|55|27.5
    Fuel/Electricity|9625|4598.44
    Insurance|400|436
    Tax|280|120
    Tolls|1160|580
    ||
    TOTAL|11770|5846.94
    Cost savings vs ICE||5923.06
    ||
    Cost per km|0.09416|0.0467755
    Cost per km saving||0.0473845


    Overall it works out at nearly €6,000 saved versus diesel, or an extra €24 per day for up to 30 mins of your time

    If your company pays mileage or allows you to purchase a company car then there could be more savings to be had

    Whether it's worthwhile is up to you, I'm just trying to give as clear a picture as I can


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 4,948 ✭✭✭ pullandbang


    FWIW, here's an estimate of the savings you'd see from moving from a Diesel car to an EV

    |Diesel mobile|VW ID.4 77kWh
    Annual milage (km)|125000|125000

    125k mileage? That's a lot of driving......


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,247 ✭✭✭ tom1ie


    FWIW, here's an estimate of the savings you'd see from moving from a Diesel car to an EV

    |Diesel mobile|VW ID.4 77kWh
    Annual milage (km)|125000|125000
    ||
    Electric economy (kWh/100km)||22.5
    Combined fuel ecomony (l/100km)|5.5|
    ||
    Charger losses|10.00%|10.00%
    DC Charging Percentage (%)||0.35
    Total Electricity used (kWh)||28125
    Domestic Electricity used (kWh)||18281.25
    DC Charging Electricity used (kWh)||9843.75
    Fuel used (l)|6875|
    ||
    Home Electricity cost (€/kWh)|0.09|
    DC Charge Electricity cost (€/kWh)|0.3|
    Fuel cost (€/l)|1.4|
    ||
    ||
    Annual costs||
    Maintenance|250|85
    NCT|55|27.5
    Fuel/Electricity|9625|4598.44
    Insurance|400|436
    Tax|280|120
    Tolls|1160|580
    ||
    TOTAL|11770|5846.94
    Cost savings vs ICE||5923.06
    ||
    Cost per km|0.09416|0.0467755
    Cost per km saving||0.0473845


    Overall it works out at nearly €6,000 saved versus diesel, or an extra €24 per day for up to 30 mins of your time

    If your company pays mileage or allows you to purchase a company car then there could be more savings to be had

    Whether it's worthwhile is up to you, I'm just trying to give as clear a picture as I can

    Fair play raisin thanks for that.
    The only thing I have to factor in though is the monthly repayment on the car loan vs no repayment atm.

    So i suppose the next question is what’s the fastest charging EV on the market? I’m guessing a Tesla on a Tesla charger?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,924 ✭✭✭ zg3409


    tom1ie wrote: »
    So i suppose the next question is what’s the fastest charging EV on the market? I’m guessing a Tesla on a Tesla charger?

    Yes generally, but you need to preheat the battery to get max speeds and max speeds are only for a short part of charging time. Headline peaks are far from average speeds.

    The porche tycann can theoretically charge faster due to 800 volt battery, but very charger dependant.

    Typically best way to get a fast charge is to ensure the battery is warm and at a low % but above 20%.

    Typically if you plan trips correctly you maximise home charging at start and end of trip (arriving home with 15% battery left is ideal) and on certain trips dropping maximum speed from say 120km/h to 110km/h might allow you to skip an entire charging stop so make your total trip shorter.

    Tesla has access to Tesla only chargers, and all other chargers, so you have a benefit there, but only really on mainland UK or European trips. There is only a handful of Tesla sites in Ireland

    The main thing is to buy a car with enough range to avoid public charging for 99% of typical trips, that avoids any unnecessary stops as chargers may be busy, blocked or broken.


  • Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭ mun1


    I’m going from an Audi Q5 to a Q4 Etron next month
    Based on some calculations based on diesel and elec cost , the balance point for energy usage for me is 56c per kWh .

    Anything less than that gives me a saving on fuel cost vs diesel.
    Most of my charging will be at home at less than 10c per kWh.

    Granted Q5 isn’t the most economical of cars but I was going to get a new one anyway so comparison is valid for me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,840 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    mun1 wrote: »
    I’m going from an Audi Q5 to a Q4 Etron next month
    Based on some calculations based on diesel and elec cost , the balance point for energy usage for me is 56c per kWh .

    Anything less than that gives me a saving on fuel cost vs diesel.
    Most of my charging will be at home at less than 10c per kWh.

    Granted Q5 isn’t the most economical of cars but I was going to get a new one anyway so comparison is valid for me.

    I think comment is brilliant because it pushes back against some of the biggest misconceptions around comparing EVs to ICE cars

    I keep hearing comments like "oh well modern diesel cars get 70mpg and Ionity and ESB are really expensive, so the savings with an EV aren't great"

    There's a few flaws with that argument

    1. The car in question is generally something like a diesel Polo, which doesn't get 70mpg in the real world anway
    2. It definitely won't achieve that over a long motorway journey, which is what people seem to be concerned about when considering an EV
    3. People pick the car they want & can afford, so comparing a mini hatchback to something like a Tesla Model X doesn't make sense. A Q5 ve Q4-Etron is a much more like for like comparison
    4. People do most of their charging at home which is vastly cheaper than the price of fast charging. Even if they use a lot of public charging, the price can be lowered with a subscription


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,329 ✭✭✭✭ fits


    I think comment is brilliant because it pushes back against some of the biggest misconceptions around comparing EVs to ICE cars

    I keep hearing comments like "oh well modern diesel cars get 70mpg and Ionity and ESB are really expensive, so the savings with an EV aren't great"

    There's a few flaws with that argument

    1. The car in question is generally something like a diesel Polo, which doesn't get 70mpg in the real world anway
    2. It definitely won't achieve that over a long motorway journey, which is what people seem to be concerned about when considering an EV
    3. People pick the car they want & can afford, so comparing a mini hatchback to something like a Tesla Model X doesn't make sense. A Q5 ve Q4-Etron is a much more like for like comparison
    4. People do most of their charging at home which is vastly cheaper than the price of fast charging. Even if they use a lot of public charging, the price can be lowered with a subscription


    A lot of people don’t *usually* buy new cars though. So often the comparison of a brand new ev with good range with a 3-6 year old diesel is valid. That was the choice we had. Buy new for first time ever or a 3-4 year old diesel (probably an estate of some description). For my usage, over three years the ev only just wins out when depreciation is considered. Beyond that time period it’s more uncertain.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,840 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    fits wrote: »
    A lot of people don’t *usually* buy new cars though. So often the comparison of a brand new ev with good range with a 3-6 year old diesel is valid. That was the choice we had. Buy new for first time ever or a 3-4 year old diesel (probably an estate of some description). For my usage, over three years the ev only just wins out when depreciation is considered. Beyond that time period it’s more uncertain.

    True, but that's more down to there not being a huge number of long range 2nd hand EVs around, and what's there is selling for a high price

    Yes you need to balance the fact that a brand new EV costs more than a 4 year old diesel, but you're also getting a car that is 4 years newer


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